New Sections on this part of the forum?

[Shawki Shlemon]

Hi Andy
I want to write a thread about Garratt steam coupling with a diagram ( picture form ) but I could not copy the picture to the page . Is it possible to cut and paste from my documents or word to this program ? Sorry for my ignorance !!

[Shawki Shlemon]

Hi Andy
I got help from baggo and found out how to do it .
thanks

[nigeljones]

Can anybody out there help? I started to build Winson's Tiger Tank 10 years ago. Modelworks took over the company but have failed to supply me with wiring instructions, advice on the gear box and radio control parts.

I have never in my life dealt with a company such as this. Constant 'phone calls are answered with reassurances that they will call me back. But they never do. Has anybody had the perseverence and fortitude to complete this petrol driven machine?

I live in Western Australia which might make a difference to Modelworks interest but certainly not to my expectations of adequate service. If anybody knows of an effective way to deal with this company I would be most grateful.

Nigel

[standardsteam]

Modelworks surely shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to repeat customers I think. I'd think twice about re-ordering yet I do get the impression of a small band of people doing there best. Debbie (one of MWs tech staff) must be absolutely snowed under with little jobs like this and I'm sure most of us Modelworks builders have had call to discuss parts issues with her. Most of mine have eventually been resolved after a certain amount of reminding and persistence but they need to put in place a proper customer support system where issues are dealt with systematically. Winson being the forerunner of Modelworks I suppose they're not duty bound to help with these kits anymore but I think they had a tiger running about when I went there 2 years ago. Fortunately a telephone call for me doesn't cost as much as you phoning from Australia but persistance does seem to be the key. Failing that there may be Tiger owners lurking on this board or others who may have copies of the instructions. Nigel Fraser Ker used to have the winson/modelworks support site which I don't think he runs any more but he may know of some Tiger builders.

[drjohn]

You know, I was doing the economics of Modelworks in my head, and even with the high prices they charge, and assuming a 100% profit, it doesn't seem to me to be a viable business prospect.

If you work out the cost of scratch building, not including labour and assuming a bought boiler, I cannot see how Modelworks makes enough to cover the overheads. For example, just the wheel and cylinder castings and plans for a 5" Black 5, cost almost 1000 quid and the boiler will probably run to a couple of thousand or more, not counting the other materials and work ....

So I suggest all you customers get all of your kits before they bite the financial dust.

[standardsteam]

drjohn said:

You know, I was doing the economics of Modelworks in my head, and even with the high prices they charge, and assuming a 100% profit, it doesn't seem to me to be a viable business prospect.

If you work out the cost of scratch building, not including labour and assuming a bought boiler, I cannot see how Modelworks makes enough to cover the overheads. For example, just the wheel and cylinder castings and plans for a 5" Black 5, cost almost 1000 quid and the boiler will probably run to a couple of thousand or more, not counting the other materials and work ....

So I suggest all you customers get all of your kits before they bite the financial dust.

I don't know how they do it either, they would have had to turn 900 wheels just to satisfy the Britannia production run. Having said that the company is a few years old now and people have been predicting the end since the start.

[steamfittings]

Drjohn,

It's comments like yours that leads to the demise of companies. It make potential and current customer nervous and causes widespread panic for no real reason. Just look at the Nothern Rock situation in the UK as an example.
How can you make the suggestion about 'customers getting all of their kits before they bite the financial dust' with NO experience of that particular company, how it procures it's material and castings or how it's set up to manufacture.
A boiler costs ModelWorks (MW's) no where near the £2k you might pay and with regard to the work involved a lot of the small 5" gauge boilers can be fully manufactured in under 1 day due to the way the company is set up.
Do you really belive that MW's would be paying the same price for cylinder and wheel castings as you would? Spending 15 - 20K or more per month on materials is a bit different to spending a few quid when it comes to getting the best prices. How do you know MW's do not import everything from China or India at a fraction of the UK prices and therefore their profit margins are massive? You don't! How do you know MW's do not have 20 Polish workers earning minimum wage doing every hour God sends? You don't! What they do have is a £3/4 million building and £1/3 million worth of CNC machines,enabling them to manufacture one part in a fraction of the time it would take you or me to make from scratch. My guess is that they could probably manufacture the whole batch quicker than most people could scratch build the single item. ModelWorks have now been trading for 7 years so they must be doing something right. Let them live or die by their quality and products rather than trying to second guess and scaremonger as how they are able to make money.

Steamfittings.

[alanstepney]

steamfittings said:

Drjohn,

...
Let them live or die by their quality and products ...
Steamfittings.

The other side of the coin is that Winsons DID die, taking vast amounts of other peoples money with them.

As for Modelworks reputation, from the comments I have seen, at the very least "they could do better".

[steamfittings]

Hi Alan,

No arguements there, Winson did die after only trading for 3 years but why should MW's suffer because Winson let everyone down. ModelWorks have only ever tried to help the Winson customers out and still do their best to support them after 7 years!

Yes they should address their issues, i agree 100%, things could be better especially on the locomotive front but suggesting 'customers get all of their kits before they bite the financial dust' without any knowledge or experience of the business or how it is run isn't going to help.

ModelWorks admitedly aren't MG Rover but lots of little companies do rely on them for their business just as they did MG Rover, 25 staff rely on them for employment and most importantly hundreds of customers rely on them to stay in business and complete their models. Ask the majority of these, whether the world or the hobby would be a better place without MW's and i for one know the answer. I'm not asking for guys not too make comments or speak the truth about quality, lack of service or any other issues it's much easier to complain about than praise. When MW's do not attend an exhibition it's rumoured they've gone under, when the websites down it's rumoured they gone under etc etc. All i ask is that the nasty chinese whispers stop, as does the scare mongering, it helps no one!

Best Wishes

Steamfittings

[drjohn]

Steamfittings

It's comments like yours that leads to the demise of companies

Must be a pretty shaky company if a genuine query as to "how they do it" is met with such a ferocious response. What did Shakespeare say - "Methinks the lady protesteth too much"

Have to assume you work for/have a financial interest in MW. And if they are using Polish workers as slave labour, then shame on them! Plus, where did you get the figure of 2K for a 5" gauge boiler - you can get one in Oz for just over 600 quid, not made by 3rd world slave labour.

DJ

P.S. Dean, if I may call you that without being offensive. With it being Saturday night here, the workshop is closed and the whisky bottle is out, I had a browse round this forum and followed links to find about you, as you seem to want to reveal little in your forum info.

I came across your other over-reaction in "Suppliers who give good service" and find that you own steam fittings. Full marks - looks like you are trying to supply quality stuff to the model engineering community.

Your CNC engineering may be top-notch, but your psychology sucks! It doesn't cost anything to be nice to people and explain your position in friendly terms - much better for business.

[steam4ian]

G'day John.
Please tell me where you can get a boiler in Oz for 600 quid (Sterling GBP I suppose).
The material for a basic "Blowfly" or "Sweat Pea" boiler will not leave any change out of AUD1000 (GBP400). AUD500 for labour, I think not!

Regards,
Ian

[drjohn]

Hi Ian

E J Winters has just charged me around 600 Aussie for materials for a Simplex boiler, and a part time Navy guy is charging around 12-1500 Aussie for labour. I did the conversion then to Malaysia ringgit, which is what I live in. But WOW! just been to xe.com/pca and find the UK pound appears to have shot up against the $Au - when I ordered it a couple of months back I worked it out at about 650 quid - now it's about 860 - but still less than the same thing in the UK.

I had no intention of misleading anyone - just got out of date with exchange rates.

DJ

[steamfittings]

Hi DJ,

No i'm not being offensive and my apologies if you think so, just asking people to state facts they are aware of rather than summise. I only mentioned the 2k boiler price as that was the figure you came out with for a 5" gauge Black Five boiler in your statement 8 paragraphs above: 'For example, just the wheel and cylinder castings and plans for a 5" Black 5, cost almost 1000 quid and the boiler will probably run to a couple of thousand or more, not counting the other materials and work'.
As an example the wheel castings and cylinder material for the B5 cost MW's a total of £178, which is nothing near the 1000 quid it may cost you.
What i was trying to get across was that the difference between manufacturing 1, 2 or 3 of something is huge compared to batches of 50, 100 or more. A company set up with modern day technology and having the resource to purchase worldwide using such modern day wonders as the internet can and are, able to manufacture at a price that an indvidual scratch building just could not compete with or comprehend. Do you think you could scratch build a Ford Focus for the price Ford motor company sell them for, i doubt it and neither could MW's. It's about what you are set up to do and the quantities you are prepared to do it in.
You might deem my manner offensive and that is not how it is meant to come across, i would rather call it passionate . Passionate about a hobby i love, a job i love and a business i own (SteamFittings). It's that passion that makes me the person i am and enables a company like MW's to be in business after 7 years when the likes of Winson lasted 3.
No offence was taken to the 'How they do it' comment and should you ever visit the UK you would be welcome to visit to see how they do it for yourself. MW's welcome any visitors at any time and you would be no exeption. Had you left it at that i may well of responded positively trying to explain how they do it. . It was the final line that caused offence as without inside knowledge of the business how can you personally advice.

Best Regards

SteamFittings

P.S. Of course you can call me Dean

[steam4ian]

G'd Morning John and Dean
John, for as long as I can remember the GBP to AUD rate has been about 1.0 to 0.4; the Ozzie dollar only gets you 40p, this ratio started when Oz devalued after the 39-45 war and in spite of deregulation seems to be maintained.
Years ago I did a project in Malaysia paid in Ringit M, started at 1.65RM to AUD1.0 finished at RM2.65 to AUD1.0; it took some tight management to get out of that one. The present rate is about RM2.75 to AUD1.0.

Regarding Dean's comments, I think it is to our mutual advantage if suppliers and manufactures serving our interest group remain viable. Apart from the "big chains" I have seen few businesses that are making enormous profits. Though I do wonder at the length of supply chains.
I quite expect that material and casting costs for Modelworks et al would be 1/3 what we pay over the counter for the items. With CNC and minimalist packaging and service costs there is room for some sustaining profit yet with reasonable final prices.

Unfortunately life makes us all cynical, the engineering fraternity more than most. To miss quote Mark Twain "Rumours of my death are exaggerated". Sometimes our "prophecies" can be self fulfilling.
I don't intend to purchase from Modelworks, I can't afford it, an I would rather have less and be able to say "I built it....well most of it!"

Regards
Ian

[grahamodavies]

Love em, or hate em? I wouldn't be here reading this if it wasn't for Modelworks making it possible for a total novice to build his own live steam loco (with a bit of help from online friends). I've got to love them for that if nothing else, even though they can be a nightmare to get anything positive out of at times.

[Deleted]

I have to agree with Grahamodavies, If it wasn't for modelworks I would not be enjoying building my 2" Burrell. I, along with all Modelworks other customers, knew and accepted the risk of starting the project knowing they could fold, nothing in this day and age is certain. I sincerely hope they dont. Having been to the factory to see them am convinced that they are all dedicated staff and there is no reason why they shouldn't continue and expand. However, I do think that they need to improve thier customer relations. I don't mean in relation to personal visits as I was met by Debbie when I went up there and got the guided tour and came back ith a few spare nuts and bolts, couldn't fault the service/hospitality (Cheers Debbie.) I have since contacted them leaving messages for Debbie as I have a few duff/missing bolts and left a message on her phone (3 weeks ago) still not had a reply. I had a problem with a set of towing straps and sent them back with a letter with suggestions for improvements and asking for details of other customers with the same model to exchange views, got the straps back completed when I visited but nothing in relation to my comments. I see others have the same problem. On other occasions, when my tyre glue went hard, I got new cans sent out swiftly.

I saw them at the Midland ME (I'm 53 and I'm sure I was the youngest there) Steve let me loose on the 4" Burrell. that was fun, nearly ran into some old boy on an invalid scooter who was desperatly trying to get out of my way! I mentioned at the time that I was missing the rear wheel kits on mine and I was told that they had been finished some time ago. I didnt know that, and had to phone up and have them sent, I should have been told!

Dean - I know you are going to read this. I'm just a customer, not a business expert, but please do something about your customer services. It only takes a minute to reply to an email and less for a phone call. I am sure that if you responded to customer enquiries more promptly you would ally a lot of these chinese whispers and may even get some positive feedback on this site.

All the best with the company, I'm confident as anyone can be that I will complete my kit and I'm looking forward to my boiler in January. That's when it will look like a traction engine!

Cheers,

Alan

PS The proof that you care and that you will do something about it will be if I get a phone call from someone about my duff bolts!

I will report back readers!

[drjohn]

I apologise for entering this part of the forum - I have no right to be here as I am not, and never will be a MW customer.

It's not that I look down on building a MW kit, but to me, I could never get satisfaction.

I am a radio ham (had a "radio experimenter's licence") and in my day, we used to build our wirelesses. Then along came the CB (citizens band) brigade with their americano slang and black boxes. For a multiple-guess questionaire, they became radio amateurs.... Now look at the hobby - virtually dead.

Oddly, I got a letter from Offcom to say my licence had expired and I was no longer entitiled to use my callsign - that I would have to resit the exams and start from scratch if I wanted to transmit again - in the next breath Offcom told all the old lags like me that as of last month, their licences were for life and would not need renewing?!

It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to imagine that my reply to Offcom was one word - F*%koff-com!

So yes - there are model engineers and there are kit builders. I only hope the kit builders will become addicted and get enough enthusiasm to try the hobby for real and go for a scratch built next time.

DJ

[duchessmike]

Thanks for your thoughts DrJohn.
Indeed, there are some that are privileged to have the skill set which enable them to machine, and then there's those of us who can't.
I'm not sure what you mean by scratch building, I look at the catalogues of Reeves and Blackgates, to name a few, and see all sorts of completed items ready for fitment, so the Modelworks 'solution' is not unique, but is good for a few of us.
I can't afford the time to go to a Technical College to learn how to use a Myford or a Bridgeport, in fact, I'm not sure where such a college can be found - all my locals got rid of their 'machines' ages ago, and are now full of computers.......
So; where are the future "model engineers" going to learn their skills?
I realise that the 'kit builders' will always be looked down upon and regarded as unworthy to be part of this hobby, but I for one will be very satisfied with my efforts, proud of what I have built and gain many hours of enjoyment from it.
I'm in this hobby to play trains, not spend dozens of years generating tons of swarfe and scrap.
One Life - Live it. Thanks Modelworks.
Mike

[steam4ian]

G'day Mike, John et al.

Is assembling a kit loco any better than buying one built by another? I think not!
In all hobbies you get your snob groups which is a shame because in many ways we need each other. The buyers and assemblers help provide the tracks and facilities on which the builders operate. Built by others locos also pull the passengers and the public doesn't know the difference.

Quoting from ham radio experience it was easier to sneak home with a pair of 807s or 6146s (valves) than a new rig. Similarly for a milling cutter, length of brass section or the occasional casting. At the moment the slow acquisition route is where I find myself.

I see no shame in buying a loco if you keep it and maintain it for posterity. Too many old engines just disappear and if they surface at all are beyond restoration. Purchased and maintained operational it is a tribute to the original builder and the hobby; improved it is a tribute to the new owner as well.

Regards,
Ian

[Julia]

DJ: I don’t think you have applied the analogy with Amateur Radio correctly. A fairer analogy would be with Heath Kit and to the days long before the CB influx. Kit built rigs had nothing to do with the demise of Amateur Radio. Perhaps the turning point was when Yesau and other Japanese companies saturated the market enabling anyone with a cheque book to get on air. Model Engineering would be significantly affected if Chinese companies started selling fully assembled and painted models that exceeded the specification of scratch built models at affordable prices. Somehow I don’t think this is going to happen though there are signs of it in Gauge 1.

A successful builder of a MW kit needs a greater relative skill level than that for a Heath Kit not only because of the little surprises left by MW but because the parts have to be fettled and painted. After all it is the paint finish we see and in this regard there is a level playing field between the scratch & kit builder. MW kit builders are likely to do there own maintenance and a significant number have a small lathe which can becomes their spring board to other projects. Kit builders should be embraced rather than feared.

Julia