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Post by Roger on May 15, 2014 22:06:56 GMT
AFAIK, if Reeves, for example, sell a copy of a drawing, the copyright still belongs to Model Engineer (assuming that they originally published it) and Reeves are only selling it ontheir (ME's) behalf. I believe that Copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the author, so it would only be the very early designs that are outside the rules, and they are hardly likely to be of much interest. As for the actual designs, take most of LBSC's models. They were only roughly to scale and often simplified, as that was the only way people would be able to build them in those days. So, if you drew a GWR Hall, (of which LBSC did two versions), and followed the actual BR/ GWR drawings, that would be fine (and very useful), but if you copied Ivy Hall, with the LBSC modifications etc, I believe that would fall foul of the copyright law. Re-drawing with some changes to reflect todays workshops, plus converting everything to metric, would be, IMHO, a new design. Then comes another hurdle. As a new design it would need all the engineering calculations for the boiler to ensure that it was acceptable to the insurers. I suspect it would require a massive amount of time and effort, and for little or no reward.As for errors, I have yet to see any model engineering drawings that are totally error-free. (There might be, but I havent seen them.) I wonder if CAD would totally eliminate mistakes. Somehow I doubt it. Quite a few of us are doing just that for our own purposes and the satisfaction of a job well done. If we tidy these up for general consumption and group vetting, these could in time be a community project, like those open source software ones. I think my model of SPEEDY is far enough from LBSC's to be considered a new design. There certainly won't be much left unaltered by the time I'm finished with it. So long as I'm not going to fall foul of Copyright, I'd be happy to make my drawings and models available to anyone who wants them. It's not always about money. |
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uuu
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Post by uuu on May 16, 2014 10:00:13 GMT
My Jessie drawings were from Reeves, but each is stamped in green and signed by Ken Swan, so they weren't just freely copying them.
Wilf
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Geoff
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Post by Geoff on May 16, 2014 12:19:10 GMT
Alan has hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants someone else to make life easy for them, and expect all the drawings to be perfect. They're not perfect so deal with it.
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Post by Roger on May 16, 2014 14:40:59 GMT
Alan has hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants someone else to make life easy for them, and expect all the drawings to be perfect. They're not perfect so deal with it. I think that's a bit unfair. It's not unreasonable to expect that long standing and well known errors to be corrected. You wouldn't accept that in any other situation, so why are you happy to accept that in this one? |
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uuu
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Post by uuu on May 16, 2014 15:10:45 GMT
Working in the property development field, a similar dissapointment applies to buying a building and finding that the "as built" drawings don't show the correct wiring and pipework arrangements.
It's not even that the drawings themselves need to be amended - an accompanying list of corrections, clarifications and suggestions would cost so little (for a model loco, not a building).
It's been said before: Hurrah for Ken Swan, his drawings are lovely. You ask for examples of error-free drawings, perhaps (dangerous to tempt fate) these are what you're looking for.
Wilf
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Post by ejparrott on May 16, 2014 15:24:07 GMT
I'm working from 1960's English Electric drawings that are incomplete or inaccurate, you've got no chance of Reeves fixing their drawings if the likes of GEC Alstom don't fix theirs.
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Post by alanstepney on May 16, 2014 15:35:59 GMT
Whilst some people may be willing to amend drawings and give the results to others for nothing, (for which one can only admire them) I doubt that anyone would do so if it was their means of earning a living.
Given the vast number of designs that have appeared in ME, EIM, MEchanics, English Mechanis, et al, it would be an immense task, and one that would cost £-Thousands.
Assume that the new drawings were metric, that would mean some changes to the boiler.
That would require all the design calculations, and for them to be "signed off" by a qualified engineer.
Submitting them to the insurers would be worthwhile to ensure that the model was acceptable under Club insurance.
Overall, it is not a job for the faint-hearted.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on May 16, 2014 21:17:23 GMT
a couple of points.
don young retained the copyright and masters till his death and would amend the masters if errors cropped up.
most of the LBSC errors are well documented, as glaringly obvious and on but a few designs, though the tyro without a vast collection of MEs going back 60 or so years wont know of them. generally the martin evans errors are far more difficult to ascertain
so far is CAD is concerned this is all well and good if your computer (quite likely to be different with different software) can read the files in say 10 years time. a sheet of drawings can be used regardless of the age.
cheers,
julian
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Post by ejparrott on May 17, 2014 8:01:40 GMT
There are a couple of packages around that can read any drawing, edrawings is one. Can't edit with it but you can view and print. There's also the option of a pdf file. That covers the printing side of it. As for corrections, most CAD packages can open dxf files, most will open dwg files too, hopefully permitting saving in a new format. My CAD package doesn't allow other users to open either for some reason.
There's also the problem of creating in newer version than people have to open. I have Solidworks 2010, a friend who's been working on my cylinder drawings in 3D has a newer version, which I can't open, and solidworks doesn't support saving in older formats.
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Post by Roger on May 17, 2014 9:53:47 GMT
There are a couple of packages around that can read any drawing, edrawings is one. Can't edit with it but you can view and print. There's also the option of a pdf file. That covers the printing side of it. As for corrections, most CAD packages can open dxf files, most will open dwg files too, hopefully permitting saving in a new format. My CAD package doesn't allow other users to open either for some reason. There's also the problem of creating in newer version than people have to open. I have Solidworks 2010, a friend who's been working on my cylinder drawings in 3D has a newer version, which I can't open, and solidworks doesn't support saving in older formats. This whole business of backward compatibility is a nightmare, hence more portable drawing formats that most support. Sadly, you lose a lot of extra information when you export something from a native format but it's better than no portability at all. This is how PDF files came about. Alibre Design, now called Geomagic Design has exactly the same issues at Solidworks. I think these companies use it as a lever to get people to upgrade to newer versions. Personally, I think it just hacks people off. |
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uuu
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Post by uuu on May 17, 2014 12:56:06 GMT
There's a difference, of course between an error, and poor design. We seem to have three situations with Speedy:
Actual errors, where if you make parts to the drawings they don't fit together.
Poor design in performance - you make it to the drawing, it fits, but doesn't work very well.
Poor design in appearance - looks nothing like the original, for no real reason - it could just as easily be made to look right.
Ok four situations:
You can't get materials to the sizes on the drawings, so you have to adapt.
Ok five sitations:
You have an unnatural preference for metric fastenings and tolerances in microns.
OK scrub that last one.
Wilf
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Post by Roger on May 17, 2014 13:05:13 GMT
Unnatural... Ouch!
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uuu
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Post by uuu on May 17, 2014 13:06:39 GMT
Drifting rather off topic here, but stick with it:
I was trying to play a piece of piano music, where the transcriber had realised that many of the notes were played slightly off the beat. Perhaps a 1/64th of a beat early or late. So he'd written all of this in. It was unplayable. What you needed was a simplified notation, with a licence to tweak it a bit during performance.
Perhps some of our drawings are like this. They're simplified, and need to be tweaked in performace. Or you can have the full notation, but only a 3D printer can make it.
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uuu
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Post by uuu on May 17, 2014 13:08:38 GMT
Sorry - I was struggling for a word. I was going to say irrational - but your preference is very rational and thoroughly argued. Wilf |
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Post by Roger on May 17, 2014 13:10:29 GMT
It's a good job I'm hard to offend.....
That's not throwing down a challenge, by the way.
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Post by peterseager on May 21, 2014 7:06:19 GMT
As I finished college and started work two people made statements which have remainded in my mind ever since.
The head of department at the college said "The fact that you have a degree only proves you are capable of learning".
The Project Engineer of a development programme for a piece of kit said "The output from the project is not a xyz but a set of drawings for production".
In industry a project goes through breadboard, A models and B models with the drawings being updated and model shop and inspection reports prepared at each stage. This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, often due to interpretation rather than being plain wrong. So what hope have we as model engineers of getting error free drawings.
Peter
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 8:45:38 GMT
-------- or even using the spell checker !! >>>>>>>> "This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, "
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Post by Roger on May 21, 2014 15:25:14 GMT
As I finished college and started work two people made statements which have remainded in my mind ever since. The head of department at the college said "The fact that you have a degree only proves you are capable of learning". The Project Engineer of a development programme for a piece of kit said "The output from the project is not a xyz but a set of drawings for production". In industry a project goes through breadboard, A models and B models with the drawings being updated and model shop and inspection reports prepared at each stage. This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, often due to interpretation rather than being plain wrong. So what hope have we as model engineers of getting error free drawings. Peter All true, but if you went back to the drawing office with an error, I think you'll find they took the trouble to amend the drawing, increase the issue number and put a little note to say what's changed. It's not exactly rocket science, but the drawing sellers couldn't care less. |
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Post by peterseager on May 21, 2014 19:11:28 GMT
-------- or even using the spell checker !! >>>>>>>> "This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, " I keep seeing references to a spell checker on this board but I can't find it. If it exists, where is it please? Peter |
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Post by Roger on May 21, 2014 19:24:32 GMT
-------- or even using the spell checker !! >>>>>>>> "This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, " I keep seeing references to a spell checker on this board but I can't find it. If it exists, where is it please? Peter Hi Peter, It's active all the time and underlines any words it doesn't recognise with a red line when you complete the word and press space. |
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