jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Sept 9, 2014 23:12:45 GMT
hi david,
re ARIEL
keith could have chosen something much simpler of Southern origin. given that the complete set of works drawings survive for MN rebuilds he made a real mess of the drawings. if Laurie Lawrence wanted a SR loco then Keith didnt have to agree!
of the few designs he described in ME there are major cock ups on every one. even on GWR territory he made a real cock up of the valve gear on the BULLDOG/DUKEDOG design plus insufficient room for the front bogie to move. and the tender is nothing like any correct type of tender (of which there were quite a few variations) that ever went behind either class of loco.
what he should have done is describe a GWR KING or PRAIREE tank in 5"g.
i had a very dear old friend who built his Kennions 5"g CITY OF TRURO 4-4-0, and cursed keith every step of the way. he gave up on the drawings in the end and copied the fullsize loco.
cheers,
julian
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Post by ejparrott on Sept 10, 2014 8:19:22 GMT
i had a very dear old friend who built his Kennions 5"g CITY OF TRURO 4-4-0, and cursed keith every step of the way. he gave up on the drawings in the end and copied the fullsize loco. cheers, julian Chap in Rugby in exactly the same position. I don't think that will ever be finished now, not been touched in years, but forever saying how bad the Wilson design was. Nobody could build it to the drawings and expect it to run. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 11:37:47 GMT
Have to thank Katie for dragging me to Pangbourne this evening to sail her home made boat from scrap timber, as it was drying out by the playground a Merchant Navy steamed past on the main line with one coach in tow...now that did make my day! --------------- Yes, those early BR Standard Mk1 1st / 3rd corridor coaches are rare indeed  ... whereas the Merchants are 10-a-penny by comparison !!! |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Sept 17, 2014 14:58:26 GMT
In industry a project goes through breadboard, A models and B models with the drawings being updated and model shop and inspection reports prepared at each stage. This still does not stop the odd error creaping in, often due to interpretation rather than being plain wrong. So what hope have we as model engineers of getting error free drawings.
Peter[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance of the mechanical engineering design process, but whats a 'breadboard' in this context?
You guys are lucky, A models, B models, model shop etc etc. In civil engineering, we don't have trial runs, we only have one chance to get it right. Many the time I've been out on a weekend bridge replacement, about 2am Saturday, and we found it wouldn't fit, so we had to make it fit. All the client was interested in was getting his road/railway open for 6 am Monday morning, nobody was ever intersted in what we'd had to do to acheive it. In theory, the 'as built' drawings would incorporate our modifications, but 9 times out of 10, they didn't.
Its probably better now with CAD to make sure things fit, but in my time on site we didn't have such luxuries. Even CAD doesn't help when you have partly demolished a brick abutment, only to discover that the Victorian engineers hadn't built it to drawing, and the 'as builts' were wrong.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,857
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Post by uuu on Sept 17, 2014 16:20:06 GMT
I go back this weekend to continue putting up some cupboards. This is in a new flat. As-built drawings say wall is solid. My drill says wall is hollow. Heaven knows if the pipes and wires are where the drawings say.
Wilf
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Post by ejparrott on Sept 17, 2014 16:21:07 GMT
I only know 'breadboard' as an electronics thing for quick jabbing components together to test a circuit for function. Haven't used it or seen it used since I left Uni!
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Sept 17, 2014 17:10:48 GMT
I thought a breadboard what you put the loaf on to slice it with a knife.
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Post by alanstepney on Sept 17, 2014 18:30:40 GMT
They are, and because they would get cuts in them that harbour germs, plus were cheap, they were often discarded and then used to build radio sets on.
Ideal for making demonstration sets etc, which is what I still use them for.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Sept 18, 2014 22:11:22 GMT
I thought a breadboard what you put the loaf on to slice it with a knife. I did say'in this context' because I just knew someone would say that, and I haven't been disappointed. |
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Sept 19, 2014 16:04:11 GMT
Your welcome.
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Geoff
Hi-poster
Posts: 171 
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Post by Geoff on Sept 22, 2014 23:30:48 GMT
As-built drawings? On every project I've been on, the engineers get demobilised before the as-builts can be properly completed. Nobody wants to spend money on as-builts. ......... and its the same thing with model loco drawings. Who is prepared their hand in their pocket to do this wonderful thing?
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Sept 22, 2014 23:44:27 GMT
hi geoff,
this isnt apparent usually but don young and martin evans usually had someone build whatever was their current design with advance copies of drawings prior to publication. don was a bit more organised in this respect than martin evans!
cheers,
julian
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 23:53:10 GMT
Didn't Modelworks and Co. employ a couple of "Professional Model Engineers" to proof-build a current design using parts from the production line and tryed to emulate the typical non-skilled builder that they thought was their average customer ??.....
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Sept 22, 2014 23:55:30 GMT
hi alan,
i very much doubt it given the well documented problems and serious problems by all accounts with anything other than the first few kits!
cheers,
julian
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 0:12:09 GMT
The Kinver Club were invited in to their factory for a tour one evening and during the introductory "waffle" by their MD I do remember that those two testers were mentioned....One of them was a well known character of the time but his name escapes me for now.....I also suggested to them that they ought to consider marketing some of their tenders as a separate item ( Stanier's one for example) as they can be used behind several other loco types within each railway company............I was politely told to "Go away---there's no market for that sort of thing !!"-------------Not much later and there is Malcolm High making some good money out of just that thing !!
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Post by ejparrott on Sept 23, 2014 8:39:11 GMT
There is a video somewhere of one of their Black Five's running at Rugby...it was given a damn good shove down the long hill before the camera rolled and caught it 'steaming' along the back straight.
Steam Traction World in Daventry take a set of parts of their production line as they go, and build a 'control' model of their own, in effect for a batch of 20 kits they're build 21 sets of parts. From what I've seen, and I have been keeping an eye on them, they're seem to be doing very well. A few teething troubles, but they seem to be very good at getting them sorted out.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,875
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Post by Midland on Oct 8, 2014 19:21:26 GMT
All true, but if you went back to the drawing office with an error, I think you'll find they took the trouble to amend the drawing, increase the issue number and put a little note to say what's changed. It's not exactly rocket science, but the drawing sellers couldn't care less. Yeah no. I've been phoning people with errors for years, never made a difference. You used to go down the shop floor at the works to see the fitters, and they'd tell you they knew about it and they just put it right..... Ed/ Roger, Not sure if I have told you this before but in a previous life we won a contract to overhaul and refurbish BR 'merry-go-round' wagons. We got 200 and Doncaster wagon (BREL) got the other 200. We subbed out the body part to a local metal basher in Stoke. On trying to put the first body into the first refurbed chassis, it would not fit. We had done it to drawing and this was double checked. The preverbial hit the fan and this got to the top in Derby and we had the modern day equivalent of the CME and entourage in our works to see for himself. They had all been built at Shildon and as the drawings were wrong Shildon put the bodies in 'their' way. We actually had the drawings changed so the bodies were built to the proper dimensions and then they fitted the underframes. Doncaster had not even noticed and they got a raking over the coals. I think 2,000 were built! So it happens on the big boy's railway just as in models. Cheers David |
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Post by Roger on Oct 8, 2014 21:37:53 GMT
Hi David,
That's shocking really, and so sloppy. And then we wonder why much of our industry went down the tubes. The total opposite of that was when we did some jobs for Honda's paint spraying plant in Swindon. They nail down their processes so tightly you can't deviate from them and everyone on the shop floor knows it. They'd cry if they walked down one of Rover's old lines..... come to think of it, they probably did. They gave up trying to turn that round, it was rotten to the core.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2014 23:19:09 GMT
At my previous address, my next door neighbour worked at the old British Leyland plant on the production line rejects rectification area for the Triumph Acclaim car ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Acclaim ).....He said that the Honda people kept themselves behind a white screen, had very little "interaction" with the BL staff--------and also had the lowest returns compared to the British line !! |
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,875
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Post by Midland on Oct 9, 2014 20:11:23 GMT
Hi David, That's shocking really, and so sloppy. And then we wonder why much of our industry went down the tubes. The total opposite of that was when we did some jobs for Honda's paint spraying plant in Swindon. They nail down their processes so tightly you can't deviate from them and everyone on the shop floor knows it. They'd cry if they walked down one of Rover's old lines..... come to think of it, they probably did. They gave up trying to turn that round, it was rotten to the core. Roger We had some fun with these people from Derby. I knew the assistant, David Russell, quite well. He told me that his boss was very difficult and as we had arranged to put them all up at a hotel in Stoke and give them dinner, I was jo'ed off the take him in my car, I suppose as I was the MD. He sat with me in stoney silence and I think he was pissed off that I was Canadain and we had found out that BR was a bit plonkerish. I tried a ruse. David had told me that he was Derby through and through so I said, "On your english railways I have never liked those green things with brass bits all over nor the black ones where they thrashed the locos like they were diesels but if you want customer sarvice go no further tha St Pancras, what a great railway, frequent services, comfortable and always on time. And they had the courage to build Compounds, well ahead of the rest. He was gobsmaked and after spluttering a few times asked me how I knew about such things. I had to confess that my father grew up at Mill Hill and was a rail enthusiast and this was passed on to me even though I was brought up in Canada. We had an english railway in our basement and a 1936 Bassett-Lowke compound in O gauge. The problems were solved smoothly, he asked me to drop in and say hello whenever I was in Derby and we moved on to sell all our rail assets when Maggie threw the train set out of her pram. So there you are. Under the AAR you built to drawing or you were up infront of the Interstate Commission! There, a litle bit of life. Cheers David |
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... whereas the Merchants are 10-a-penny by comparison !!! 
