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Post by baggo on Mar 6, 2009 17:01:03 GMT
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Post by ron on Mar 6, 2009 19:41:45 GMT
Hi John
Looks excellent, it'll be interesting to see what it goes for.
I haven't come across that ID verified Logo before, the one after his username?
Ron
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Post by baggo on Mar 15, 2009 22:11:44 GMT
£675. Pretty good price if the boiler is as good as it looks. I wonder if he'll build any more. Not seen that symbol before either. Apparently it's something to do with proving your identity, presumably to prospective buyers. Unfortunately, the Ebay help page refering to this doesn't seem to exist  John |
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Post by engineernut on Mar 16, 2009 18:54:27 GMT
Hi John Looks excellent, it'll be interesting to see what it goes for. I haven't come across that ID verified Logo before, the one after his username? Ron Is it possibly because seller is registered in Germany? I am guessing but as item located there I presume that is why.  |
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wayne
Seasoned Member
Posts: 137
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Post by wayne on Mar 18, 2009 19:28:24 GMT
What would be the uk position of this boiler
As I understand it a private individual building a boiler must have the materials inspected before they are assembled or soldered up, then finally 2x pressure test on completion of the silver soldering,.
What is defiantly in place if an individual wants to build to sell boilers they must be ce marked, or built to the complete engine then no ce mark is required. This was discovered in a discussion with two of my ex colleges (both have Ieng status and are also insurance inspectors) as we were discussing as I am qualified for copper work if I could build boilers and sell them with a valid professional test certificate Taking this into account is that German eBay boiler suitable for use in the uk
Your thoughts please
Wayne
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Post by baggo on Mar 18, 2009 20:50:34 GMT
Hi Wayne,
so far as I'm aware, the pre-inspection of say the outer boiler shell and the firebox tube assembly before final fitting is probably at the discretion of the boiler inspector. Most would prefer to see it part built though, especially if the builder is an 'unknown' quantity. If it's a completed boiler, the inspector will usually want to see the boiler in it's bare state i.e. with no cleading or insulation so that he/she can assess the overall build quality. However, I do know that some inspectors will not look at a complete boiler that has no previous paperwork.
I think this particular instance is just a private sale rather than a commercial venture but we'll see if any more appear. I would imagine that whether or not it gets a ticket over here will be down to whoever the buyer takes it to for the test.
John
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Post by mutley on Mar 18, 2009 22:09:07 GMT
It doesnt make any diffence if it is a private venture or a commercial sale. The rules say that any boiler not built for personal use must be CE marked. Technically you cant use this boiler in europe. The loop hole is when it is incorporated into a complete model and then steamed before sale. I had a long chat at the NRM weekend before last with a gentleman from the Northern Fed commity who confirmed this.
Andy
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Post by baggo on Mar 19, 2009 0:46:58 GMT
Oh well, the buyer can always use it as an expensive doorstop ;D Sad really as it looks far better made than some of our 'commercial' ones John |
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Mar 19, 2009 5:06:32 GMT
G'day all
The boiler does seem to have some certification going by the numbers and symbols low down on the back sheet.
Certification may be possible if it was reverse engineered to prove design, boroscopically inspected to check internal workmanship and then hydrotested up to 2x the calculated design pressure. The only thing missing is traceability of the materials. Conditional certification with reduced inspection intervals could be the answer until satisfactory performance is established.
It would be a poor inditement on the ME community if there is not some way what is obviously so well made does not get a guernsey. I think the AMBSC code makes some allowance for imported boilers.
At least it isn't stainless steel! ;D ;D
Regards,
Ian
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Post by ron on Mar 19, 2009 10:13:35 GMT
For the price he got for it, it wasn't very profitable when you take into account the cost of materials etc and the labour involved.
Ron
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Post by mike.rometer on Mar 19, 2009 15:30:10 GMT
Beware Non CE compliant boilers.
RSA, the major insurer of the model engineering fraternity has recently stated:
'RSA have said that if a claim arose on one of their policies involving one
of the non CE compliant boilers they would consider the policy to be
voidable at their option. Translated that means that they would more than
likely turn the claim down on the grounds that the boiler is non CE
compliant.'
In addition to such model not being covered by insurance, the insurance taken out by ME clubs usually covers the boiler inspectors with regard to liabilities arising out of boiler testing and the boiler inspectors may very well find they are not covered in this respect
Mike Rometer
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Post by baggo on Mar 19, 2009 17:33:32 GMT
I presume CE certification for our boiler makers requires outside examination as it could be considered a high risk product? It would appear that manufacturers of low risk products can often self certify themselves and just issue a certificate of conformity which rather makes the whole thing a bit farcical John |
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Post by baggo on Mar 19, 2009 17:40:51 GMT
'RSA have said that if a claim arose on one of their policies involving one of the non CE compliant boilers they would consider the policy to be voidable at their option. Translated that means that they would more than likely turn the claim down on the grounds that the boiler is non CE compliant.' Are they referring to just commercially made boilers here? John |
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 19, 2009 18:54:41 GMT
In theory, the CE rules should apply throughout Europe.
In practice the enforcement of them and the local interpretation does seem to vary between countries.
(NB, I am NOT getting into politics in this thread, and hope no-one else does so.)
Whilst Mike has stated the positon in the UK (which is where most of the members of this forum live), I would imagine that in other countries it would depend upon the insurers, clubs, etc who are involved.
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Post by mutley on Mar 19, 2009 19:45:40 GMT
Will this will also apply to a boiler that has been made for by a club member!!
As a club boiler inspector personally I will not inspect a comercally made boiler that has neither a serial number or CE mark.
Andy
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russell
Statesman
Chain driven
Posts: 762
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Post by russell on Mar 19, 2009 20:27:25 GMT
Yes Alan the rules do apply to all EU member states. However there does seem to be a bit of confusion. I have in the past been involved in writing european standards to comply with directives so let me try to explain the situation as I understand it (usual disclaimer):
The EU directive requiring CE marking only applies to boilers intended to be "placed on the market". That is boilers made for sale, hire, etc. It does not apply to boilers made for one's own use or purchased second hand from someone who made it for his own use and it is illegal to CE mark these boilers.
Boilers placed on the market must comply with the directive 97/23/CE but this does not necessarily require or allow CE marking. There are several classes of boilers:
1. Boilers of 2 litres or less, regardless of pressure
These must NOT be CE marked. It must be designed and built according to accepted practice and marked with the builder's name (or company). It must be supplied with instructions for use.
2. Boilers over 2 litres where the product of the volume in litres times the pressure in bar is no greater than 50
These may be self certified by the builder. The control of the construction is done by the builder himself. The boiler must be CE marked and it must be supplied with technical documentation, a declaration of conformity, and a test report. There is no need to involve a notified body (approved test house)
3. Boilers with a volume pressure product over 50 and up to 200 are treated as above but with final verification being approved by a notified body.
4. Bigger boilers are unlikely to concern us.
Russell
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 19, 2009 21:09:00 GMT
Russell, your interpretaion agrees with the UK rules as I understand them.
Mutley, to simplify things.
At one time I made boilers for other people. That is not now allowed without going the "commercial" route with its myriad of paperwork etc.
I CAN make boilers for myself.
I CAN fit them in a model, and after running and testing, can sell that model.
I CAN "assist and advise" someone who is building their own boiler, but CANNOT "help build it".
(The difference being that holding a part while someone brazes it is assisting, but doing the brazing is "help".)
Commercially made boilers of recent manufacture (over 2litres) must have the CE mark.
Most commercial makers have always used serial numbers or means of establishing their identity, so, for older commercially made boilers, that should not be a problem.
The Blue/Red book contains all the information one requires to cover most situations.
NB< this applies to the UK.
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Post by mutley on Mar 19, 2009 21:20:45 GMT
Hi Alan,
That is as I understand the rules as well, however what about the situation that still happens where a club member says, I can make you a boiler. You supply the material and I will put it together. Money hasn't changed hands but it is not for personal use! How will the insurance company view it in the event of a claim? Personally I would advise against doing such a thing however i would be interested to hear others views.
Andy
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Post by baggo on Mar 19, 2009 21:55:28 GMT
My impression would be that it would still be classed as making a boiler for someone else regardless of whether money changed hands or not and so would still be 'illegal'. I suppose the obvious way out is for the 'owner' to say he built it with 'assistance' from another individual John |
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Post by mutley on Mar 19, 2009 22:09:46 GMT
What strikes me most from this thread is that despite having these rules for the last 7 years or more there is still a large amount of ignorance around what is 'allowable' and what isnt. Any body care to right an upto date article for ME that spells out what the rules require and what shoiud be expected when you buy a boiler or make one yourself.
Andy
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