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Post by baggo on Mar 19, 2009 22:14:49 GMT
I agree Andy, that would be a very good idea. I'm not going to volunteer though as I certainly don't know enough about it John
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Post by weldsol on Mar 19, 2009 22:24:59 GMT
Perhaps the editor could put out a question on boilers and see what comes out of the woodwork Paul
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Post by mike.rometer on Mar 19, 2009 23:55:24 GMT
Andy
You wrote: Any body care to right an upto date article for ME that spells out what the rules require and what shoiud be expected when you buy a boiler or make one yourself.
This has already been done, see Model Engineer No. 4188, 7-20 Feb 2003. Nothing has changed since that article was written.
Mike Rometer
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steam4ian
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Post by steam4ian on Mar 20, 2009 7:46:15 GMT
G'day all
Maybe David will take the hint.
There is no reason why an article can't be repeated, not everybody has access to back issues.
An Electronics mag I used to subscribe to would from time to time compile articles along a certain subject line into into a booklet, eg electronic gizmos for the car or for model railways. It made extra sales and saved sorting through years of magazines.
This the wrong topic for me to take this further.
Regards Ian
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 20, 2009 8:58:21 GMT
Some years ago I took the decision not to build steam models any more, because the rules on boilers and testing were getting too complex. This thread just confirms my decsion was right (for me). Can someone clarify a point for me - It seems to be agreed that it is OK for a homeworker to build a boiler for his own use, incorporate it in a model, run it use it and then sell that model, but not OK for him to build just the boiler and then sell that. What about the situation when someone builds a boiler, genuinely intending to incorporate it in a model, but then due to changed circumstances (ill health, death, financial issues etc etc) cannot or does not do so. are we saying that that boiler on its own cannot be sold? What about part built models, including a boiler that have not been used? Can they 'legally' be sold?
Regards Richard
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Post by mike.rometer on Mar 20, 2009 10:56:53 GMT
Richard
You wrote: What about the situation when someone builds a boiler, genuinely intending to incorporate it in a model, but then due to changed circumstances (ill health, death, financial issues etc etc) cannot or does not do so. are we saying that that boiler on its own cannot be sold? What about part built models, including a boiler that have not been used? Can they 'legally' be sold? ---------------------
When discussion took place with the then DTI to resolve the issue of the compliance of self build boilers with regard to the Pressure Equipment Directive an amendment was obtained for the hobby which I precis the relevant parts as follows -
The Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2002 Made 6th May 2002 The Secretary of State, ..... in relation to measures relating to pressure equipment and assemblies .....hereby makes the following Regulations: Citation and commencement ....... " (4) For the purposes of these Regulations, an item of pressure equipment or an assembly which is made available for the first time in the Community whether for reward or free of charge shall not be regarded as having been placed on the market where: - .................. (b) prior to its being made so available it has been used otherwise than in the course of business at all times since its manufacture or import." EXPLANATORY NOTE (This note does not form part of the Regulations) These Regulations amend the Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999 (S.I. 1999/2001) ("the 1999 Regulations") by providing that pressure equipment that is placed on the market after it has been used otherwise than in the course of business at all times since its manufacture or import shall not be subject to the requirements of the 1999 Regulations relating to placing on the market of such equipment (regulation 2(1)).
In effect, if a boiler has a history of usage, in a non commercial capacity, prior to being first placed on the market, as most of our self build models do, then the the regulation does not apply. The one area that was never properly resolved, because the DTI didn't want to go back to Parliament and possibly rock the boat with Brussels, was the grey area you mention above eg a widow wishing to dispose of a part complete model that had had the boiler made but had never been steamed. It was left such that if the situation arose and there was proof of evidence of the circumstance then should there be a challenge regarding compliance, it would be looked favourably upon. I know that this is not a perfect answer but it was that could be achieved at the time.
Mention has been made regarding a member at a club building a boiler for someone else. In these circumstances the boiler would have to comply with PER and be CE marked accordingly. HOWEVER, if such a boiler was built by an individual assisted by a club member then this is OK. I leave that to your imagination as to what degree you may wish to take it.
Mike Rometer
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Post by mike.rometer on Mar 20, 2009 11:21:25 GMT
See previous posting
'I know that this is not a perfect answer but it was that could be achieved at the time'. should read 'I know that this is not a perfect answer but it was that the best that could be achieved at the time.'
Mike Rometer
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 20, 2009 14:06:25 GMT
Mike Thanks for that. I'll stick to IC stationary engines and workshop equipment, and leave the clever stuff with boilers to the others. Pity, because I love steam.
Richard
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 20, 2009 15:25:10 GMT
Richard, boilers arent too bad. Pick a standard design and build it yourself and you are then OK.
Or, buy one from one of the established professionals that has all its paperwork, if you feel unable to make one.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 20, 2009 16:06:34 GMT
Alan Its not that I can't make one, I've made several, Juliet, Wallis Simplicity roller, Speedy, Tasker tractor. I work in Ireland during the week, have done for the last 10 years, come home every other weekend, and as you can imagine, if I announced that I was off to the local club on my 'home' weekend, this wouldn't be very popular. Hence, because I'm not a club member, and even if I was, I'd be an non -participating one, getting a boiler tested is next to impossible, and 'commercial' charges are unaffordable (by me anyway). Its no ones fault but my own, driven by the need to earn a decent living, though thats rapidly coming to an end, but the net result is that participating in active steam isn't a possibility at the moment. No one bothers their heads over whatever sort of IC engine I build, nor does anyone look for any from of certification on the rare occasion that I take one of my products to the local engine rally. Maybe I should get out more.
Richard
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russell
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Post by russell on Mar 20, 2009 18:51:32 GMT
The important consideration is whether or not the boiler is "placed on the market". There is a strict definition of this in the EU rules but unfortunately, being retired, I no longer have access to this. Perhaps someone else can provide the definition. However, if no money or benefit in kind is transferred I don't see how helping someone build their boiler, however much help is given, can be considered to have placed the boiler on the market.
Russell.
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 20, 2009 20:10:01 GMT
Richard, all you need is a supply of 36 or 48 hour days. When you locate some, can I have a few please!
Russell, As far as the UK rules go (and for the average model engineer that has to include the insurance angle) there is a difference between building it for someone and giving the builder some advice or assistance.
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russell
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Post by russell on Mar 21, 2009 9:06:46 GMT
Alan, There is a difference between rules (of law) and conditions imposed by the insurers. Like all EU countries the UK is obliged to put EU directives into national law and withdraw any conflicting laws. However, as you say, the insurance question is important and insurers are free to impose whatever conditions they like on your policy. It is important to read the small print on the policy and take expert advice if necessary. I am not qualified to comment on the insurer's attitude to having someone help you build your boiler although logically they should prefer it to be built well by en experienced person that to be built badly by a first timer. Maybe it is too much to expect insurers to act logically!
Russell.
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steam4ian
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Post by steam4ian on Mar 21, 2009 12:01:56 GMT
G'day all
How can helping somebody make a boiler be a "commercial" undertaking?
On the one hand we have Britts too scared to make a boiler yet on the other Frenchies tacking together bits of stainless steel with electric glue. ;D
Makes me glad to be an Ozzie; thank you AMBSC!
Bless ya all Ian
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 21, 2009 20:02:14 GMT
G'day all How can helping somebody make a boiler be a "commercial" undertaking? ... Bless ya all Ian The rules, as they were originally proposed, would have prevented any of us making our own boilers. Due to a lot of hard work and negotiation by a very able team of people, we have a concession that allows each of us to make our own boiler. I dont believe that the majority realise how much work and effort must have gone into that, not what an immense benefit it is to the majority of model engineers. However, it is a concession and to keep within it, we can only construct OUR OWN boilers, and not make them for someone else. Exactly where one draws the line between assisting someone (which is OK), and making it for them, (which is not) is a moot point and not one that I believe should be too widely discussed on a public forum. But, a reasonable amount of common sense should apply, and anyone helping someone to make a boiler should ensure that all they do is assist, rather than taking over the job.
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Post by stantheman on Mar 21, 2009 20:16:30 GMT
On Alan's latest posting I wholeheartedly agree with him. Being party to the many discussions on this subject during my previous time served on the S/Fed committee, although not directly involved, that was down to our then very able safety officer, I personally know how much time and effort was given freely by the group that led us away from the possibility we could not build our own boilers.
I do wonder if perhaps now would be a good time to suspend this particular thread. The facts are we have a very generous set of guidelines on boiler safety and inspection, and we should, in the UK at least, feel thankful for that.
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Post by baggo on Mar 21, 2009 21:44:04 GMT
Although my post was not intended to bring about such a debate, I'm glad it has as I think most of us are now a lot clearer on what we can and cannot do when it comes to boiler making. Thanks to all who've contributed John
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Post by mutley on Mar 21, 2009 22:05:16 GMT
I feel the same John and wouldnt like to think that people would stop contributing more thoughts to a useful discussion.
Andy
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Mar 27, 2009 9:41:43 GMT
I don't understand the confusion. how can anyone prove who did what on the boiler and why that matters ? As long as the builder/s are not the inspector who will test and certify the boiler anyone can work on the boiler. At least this is how it works here. I am a boiler inspector and I can NOT inspect and certify my boilers even after I sell the models .
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russell
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Post by russell on Mar 27, 2009 21:01:55 GMT
Sounds eminently sensible Shawki. Similar situation here in practice except that the builder can test his own boiler jointly with one other CAV member (to qualify for CAV insurance).
Russell.
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