Boiler testing qualifications

[wayne]

Can any body tell me what the boiler testing qualifications are for model copper steam boilers? For I know commercial and industrial steam boilers the minimum requirement under Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Container regulations 1989 & 2002 is Incorporated Engineer.

[GeorgeRay]

AS far as Society boiler inspectors are concerned the latest edition of the Booklet for the examination and testing of minature steam boilers states.
Inspector: A person who is competent to examine and report on all parts of the system as covered by the test code. An Inspector must not examine/test his own work or equipment in his ownership. An inspector shall be a member, and appointed by the Committee, of the Society/Club under whose name the boiler is examined/tested and after such persons have satisfied the Committee that they have the appropriate level of experience and/or qualificcations.

An inspector shall have a sound practical and theoretical knowledge and experience of the plant he is to examine, such as will enable him to detect defects or weakness which it is the purpose of the examination to discover; and to assess their importance in relation to the strength and function of the particular plant. The individual should know his own limitations and should not act outside his level of qualification or knowledge.

This only applies to boilers which are covered by the appropriate Model Engineering authority e.g. Southern Federation, Northern Federation etc.

Hope this helps.

[wayne]

Thanks for the infornation George,
Regards Wayne

[steammadman]

The only problem i can see with a lot of club boiler testers is,
a fair number of them have NEVER made a boiler.

[jackrae]

If that is the case then they clearly cannot display adequate competence to critique another person's construction - irrespective of their personal ego.

With respect to "qualifications" (chartered or incorporated engineer etc), a paper qualification does not imply competency. And just for the record I am a chartered engineer, a member of a club for umpteen years and capable of expressing an opinion about a colleagues boiler - but I do not consider myself as adequately competent to act as judge and jury on a build. Most of us can perform a pressure test to a given set of conditions - but that does not make us boiler inspectors. An inspector should be capable of studying the detail of a build and assess whether the actual design and fabrication are of adequate strength and quality to endure the rigours (and the ocassional abuse) of service

Having said all that, we are building locos for fun so common sense must be allowed its head. What inspection is intended to do (apart from meeting legal obligations with respect to due diligence) is to root out the idiot who thinks any old thing will do and to hell with the consequences.

Merry Christmas to you all and many happy steamings.

Jack

[steammadman]

Jack, You seem to agree with my thoughts ,partially, but i still believe a boiler inspector
SHOULD have some practical skil and knowledge of boiler construction.
I too am, and have been a club member for a mumber of years,( 50 plus ), but that alone does not make me an expert. I have made 5 boilers in my years , and, i admit to 1 failure ,
and a couple of near misses.
Also in my last working years i was a lecturer/ teacher at our local technical college,
engineering department.
Oh ,and before that i worked for 15 years on the big fellows at Doncaster Plant.
But i am still NOT a baby boiler inspector.
But , again i still believe a boiler inspector should have a sound knowledge of what he is
intended to certificate.
I do realise this is only a hobby which gives a lot of enjoyment to ALL of us and to many
others who ride behind our creative labours. But i believe it is the boffins in glass boxes that are spoiling our hobby .

STEAMMADMAN (ex LNER turner/ machinist. )

[catgate]

The only problem i can see with a lot of club boiler testers is, a fair number of them have NEVER made a boiler.

The same thinking applies to the denizens of the Palace of Westminster. Not one of them could run a p**s up in a brewery, but yet they seem to feel fully qualified to run an entire country. (and, in the case of one ne'er do well, the entire world!)
So what's an odd boiler or two. (There are one or two old boilers in the aforementioned Palace too.)

A very Merry Politically Correct Winter Holiday Festival to you all.

[gwrfan]

Hi Troops!,

As a complete amateur, I believe that the testing of our 'model' boilers will always be, for some, a 'bone of contention'. A couple of years ago I bought a dismantled Maid of Kent, with a brand new, unfitted and unused boiler. I can tell from my own eye that it has been professionally made, but as some of you will know (for I have reported on it before here) I can't find out who made it. It is more or less to LBSC's words and music, but I am having difficulty convincing our club boiler inspector that it is up to the required 'standard', whatever that is. I have hydraulically tested the boiler to twice the working pressure, with no leaks, bulges, etc. I can send it away for testing to one of our well-known boiler makers, who will do the same, for a fee, and write out a test certificate. Then our club inspector won't even have to do a hydraulic test! But, I've already done that myself, hahaha!

On a similar vein, I have built my own house, and rebuilt two others. I do everything except plastering. All the wiring, electrics, plumbing, central heating installation, roofing - everything. Never had any problems. But am I classed as a builder? I dunnow! Does it matter? I dunnow? I am self-taught and proud of that. All I know is that I trust my own work much more than many so-called 'professionals', who rip you off if you don't know any better. So, what makes us an 'expert' in any field? Here we are, running our 150 plus pounds weight locos which we have built ourselves as amateurs, around a track, and all that is ever tested for safety is the boiler.

Returning to this topic, any of us who builds a model boiler DOES HAVE "some practical skill and knowledge of boiler construction". We build these boilers form drawings and notes provided by 'experts', such as LBSC, Martin Evans, Keith Wilson and so on. Our materials are supplied by 'the trade', and therefore are to the required standards (I assume they are?). Once we get our hands on the materials, solder and heat, there can only then be a visible inspection and the required tests of the completed boilers. I assume that if they don't leak, and are constructed to the approved designs, then they should be ideal for our purposes. So, if we build our own boilers, are we able to say that we are 'qualified' to test them? Well, I really don't know! Over to you, the experts, LOL!


Geoff, sat here running out of steam!

[steammadman]

Geof, you have highlighted my case,you have a boiler,YOU have tested it to the
advised twice working pressure, and ,NO LEAKES. So , who is your club boiler "inspector",
does his "title" make him any more knowledgable ,in boiler matters, than you?,
has he made a cart load of boilers, all perfect, i doubt it.
But he has the audacity to refuse to even test your boiler, even though, as you say , it is profesionally made, and a good job.
This is where the system is falling down ,on its nose.
As i read the boiler safety regs, your boiler,and i have made one of the same, is well inside the minimum capacity required for the term "model", and therefor should be tested by any
club appointed boiler inspector.WHAT IS OUR HOBBY COMING TO?.
After all your club inspector is not insuring the boiler , he is only stating that it is, or appears
to be of sound construction, and can hold the working pressure for a given time without
a significant loss.

I have a full size portable engine , and believe me i dont have half of the trouble getting that certified, or insured.
Now i put it to all on this board, which is the most lethal ?.

[alanstepney]

There are several issues raised here.

If a club boiler inspector passes a boiler, that subsequently fails, and injures someone, HE could be held liable.
At the very least, the authorities and the insurers would be asking some serious questions.


As for building, no matter how good you may be, there are now strict limits on what you are allowed to do without the right bits of paper.

Let us hope that the model engineering world doesnt go the same way.

[gwrfan]

alanstepney said:

As for building, no matter how good you may be, there are now strict limits on what you are allowed to do without the right bits of paper.

Hi Alan,

Yes, but that's part of the point of any argument. There are many cowboys out there, with pieces of paper that prove nothing. I cringe at some of the so-called 'professionals' who are on the D-I-Y TV programs, and we've all seen the 'House of Horrors' stories. I spent 4 weeks on my house roof (a 200 plus year-old cottage) in the summer. It cost me less than £1k to re timber and re-slate (with Delabole Rag slates, some 3 feet by 4 feet!!). A 'qualified' builder might have charged me £6K or more. I look at my roof everyday, proud in the fact that I know I did it, and that it will last for 50 years at least. Now, who do I apply to for a piece of paper to say that I am a qualified roofer? Oh, and I also erected my own scaffolding, LOL

I guess sooner or later the art of 'professional Boiler Maker' will die out. Then what shall we do?

[steammadman]

Yes i totally agree with GWRFAN.
And now i think it is time to put the boiler inspection soap box away,
I think we nearly all agree whatever we say now will not change
anything. Soon it will not be worth building miiature loco's, we will only
be able to admire them on the sideboard.
Thank god i did have some fun with mine .
AS I SAID THAT IS M LAST WORD ON THE SUBJECT.
(hooray i hear you all say)

Steammadman

[catgate]

This topic illustrates the terrible mess that society is in today. In times gone by the church kept the population subdued, for the benefit of the King, by preaching humility, and persuading the population that they were sinners and in mortal danger if they did not heed the word of the Church on all things. The people had to conform in all sorts of ways that we now see were totally unfounded and unnecessary. But it kept them subservient.
The politically supported "do-gooders" today perform the same function as the church used to do and, by insisting on hundreds of stupid "safety" regulations they are proving that the politician have "our interests" at heart. They (the do-gooders) are unecessarily crying "wolf" and providing ammunition for the insurance companies, and encouraging new and sillier government regulations.
ROSPA, for example, is a liability to the community and not an asset.
The population is now lulled into that euphoric state where it fondly imagines the politicians are looking after their welfare and safety from the cradle to the grave. Thus any child can walk across the road in front of moving traffic and know that it is perfectly safe etc
.......(I've gone on too long)
Merry Christmas and a Preposterous New Year