potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 12:55:13 GMT
OK Made a start not to exciting but every journey begins and ends with a step. You may think I'm sad but I like to plan out jobs as best I can before I start, I use to make my living designing building and testing items that could be a bit hazardous, if you didn't get your preparation right:- I just can't get out of the habit. So after much reading and talking to people and listening to advice, I made out a list of items I thought I may need I may end up not using everything but its better to be prepared than wanting. I started my To Do List I'll add to this as thing progress, and as putting a boiler together is complicated and the order of assembly is important:- I listed the order I would assemble the boiler, I may combine some of the operations or even change things round a bit as they go but the shear act of making the list helps make things clearer in your mind:- its all part of the learning curve. Her's the lists The first job I thought I would tackle was to make some clamps I want to leave them outside to go rusty so that the solder wont stick to them to easy so the sooner I get them made the better. A rummage through the scrap box turned these bits of material up. I burn the paint off the long bars and just squared the ends and sides up in the mill and drilled and tapped them as for toolmakers clamps, they will get a bit of heat so nothing too posh, as long as they will do the job. The shorter bars again were squared up and a slot milled across and the end drilled and tapped M5, I rounded the jaws off in two of these so that I could grip the rim of the tube without the sharp edges damaging the soft copper. I was going to make a pair of tongs but them I remembered these. I bought them at a car boot sale many years ago, don't know why I just thought they would be handy one day, well their day has arrived ;D Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 12:56:46 GMT
Any way bit more progress I checked the kit of part out and to be honest the flanging is very rough, they look like a Gorilla with a sledge hammer went to work on them. The fire box tube plate should fit in the boiler tube:- No way its about 3mm big So decided to make a set of former plates and do the job myself, for one off use you can make formers from hardwood or MDF, but the last time I used hard wood I ended up with an allergic rash that took a month to clear up, so nothing for is I'll just have to use ally jog plate a lot more hard work, but one thing old Stewpot is not afraid of is hard work, so after 1 1/2 hr a sore arm, and a bucket of sweat, I got them rough cut out of the plate. The smoke box tube plate former is round so, the rough cut plate was set up for friction turning. Before taking an hammer to the copper I annealed it by taking it to a red heat and quenching it in water, this gave me a good feal for the size of burner I'll have to use when I come to solder I ended up using my next to largest burner. The build guide recommends allowing 3/64 for the plate thinning under the hammer but I gradually reduced the dia of the former trying the tube plate in the tube taking a bit more of the former bashing the plate and tryinng it in the tube until I got a nice push fit. Next job the fire box former, this is a job for the mill. I squared the plate up then dolloped some blue on the plate then I used a centre and the DRO feature on the mill and a set of compasses to mark out the shape of the former and and hole positions I then centre popped all round the line. Back on the mill to mill the shape out you could use the RT for the Radiuses but that level of accuracy is not required I used a trusty old file to bring the shape to the scribed line. Her's the former and the tidied up fire box plates. Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 12:58:06 GMT
Any way made some progress with a backward step thrown in, more about this later. Made the former for the backhead plate you this former for the throat plate as well. First square it up so that you've got four good edges on each face, then blue it up and mark it out on the mill. Then centre pop the line to give you something to work too. Then mill out the shape I used the rotory table this time, it just fitted the clamping is not too elligant, but hay:- its effective. Then it was just a matter of tidying up the plates on the former her they are all done with the formers. Now to drill the tube plates now I know that "drilling soft copper can be tricky", :bang: I've seen lots of pics where guys have mounted tubes plates onto lathe face plates so that the holes can be bored because "drilling soft copper can be tricky" :bang: but for some reason I decided to do the drilling on my pillar drill, its not a bad pillar drill but its not as good as my mill for drilling, I clamped the smoke box tube plate onto a plank of wood and drilled the first 3/8" hole all was well, now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :bang: second ran out nearly into the first hole that I drilled, I stopped and tried rectifying it by drilling from the other side but this only made things worse:- strike one tube plate :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: OK it's a scrapper:- so decided to drill the rest of the holes any way to perfect the best method. Over too the mill:- this is the set up, the plate was position over a slot for the drill to run into and clamping onto a chunk of wood in the middle, so the flange wouldn't be damaged. That worked like a dream why didn't I do that to begin with :bang: OK have a go with the 3/4" supper heater holes now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :bang: so similar set up, but this time I sat the plate on some parallels flat side on, as the 3/4" was to wide to fit between a slot,:-a 3/8" pilot drill then straight in with the 3/4" now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :bang: that one wandered off centre as well I should have used another pilot drill. OK second 3/4" hole this time 3/8" followed by 1/2" followed by 3/4" perfect This is the scrap plate, the 3/4" hole on the left is the one that run out. you can work out for your selves which 3/8" hole went wrong. Guess what I'll be buying at the Harrogate show, still I've got the formers know. Stew Who knows that "drilling soft copper can me tricky" :bang:
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 12:59:12 GMT
Any way picked up a nice bit of 2.5mm thick copper the drawing spec is for 13g 2.33mm so its on the safe side, while I was their they cut me a 2" lump of 15/8 phos bronze for the steam dome bush, and I also picked up a length of 1/8 phos bronze to make some closing screws, and a rod of Easy Flo No1 silver solder this has a slightly higher melting point than Easy Flo No2 that I'm going to use on the bulk of the boiler, but their are a couple of places that I want to use this higher melting point solder, as the joint will be subject to quite bit of high temperatures when I'm soldering additional joints close by. Work on the new fire box tube plate first job mark out a circle 3 7/8 dia (3 3/8 + 2 * 1/4) the 1/4 is so that the flange can be formed. Then mark a 3 3/8 dia circle so the former can be centred, then anneal the plate, clamp the disc in the vice with the former and start to fold the flanges over with hammer blows, the copper starts to work harden quite quickly you can feel the material stiffen under the hammer don't try and force it or the copper will split, anneal the plate again. This is it after the second anneal. In total I annealed it 7 times before the flange had formed over onto the former. This is it complete after an hour in the pickle bath. Well that me back where I started before I try drilling the plate again I'm going to have a bit of an experiment and make some kit that should make the job easyer. This is going to be a bit :offtopic: I want to grind a drill up specifically for sheet metal whilst searching my drill stash for a spare 3/8 and 3/4 drills I came across this sorry site:- I must have picked it up out of the scrap where I use to work. So I decided to give it some TLC, my Dad taught me how to grind drills up by hand when I was an apprentice many years ago, and like riding a bike its just something I can do, if you asked me to explain it I couldn't, I could show you but explain it no. Any way this is the result. And the proof of the pudding. Still got the touch Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 13:00:17 GMT
John has kindly given me a loan of some imperial step drills:- Thanks John But I found a problem in using them three of the holes are right up against the flange and the drill will catch it. So I ground a 3/8 drill up as suggested by Rob :thumbup: but it cut too 0.020" over size but I found a 23/64 drill among my stash, most of these drill I inherited from my Dad and its a weard and wonderful collection, but don't knock it you can't beat weard . :nrocks: . So I ground that up and it gave a hole that cleaned up nicely with a 3/8 hand reamer. Hand a practice with the scrap tube plate, I used a drop of milk as a cutting fluid as suggested by John:- Semi skimmed worked ok And this is the result. The bit of sheet is 0.5 mm thick Top Job I then drilled 3mm pilot holes in the former using the mill DRO this is the set up. And made a stubby centre pop out of a bit of 3mm silver steel (drill rod) And marked the position of the holes in the new boiler tube. I decided not to drill the tubes just yet as I wont to ask the boiler inspector a couple of questions, I'm a bit concerned with the closeness of some of the tubes to the flange, the drill will just kiss the flange, and I was wondering if a should slightly reposition these holes. So I'll get on with something else. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 13:01:08 GMT
At the club night on Tuesday I took my scrap tube plate along more to get the Chaps talking and it really paid off, some of the old guys are have lots of experience building boilers, along with offers of help if I got stuck I got lots of advice and tips to get the job going. Any way on with the tube plates:- I clamped a chunk of wood and drilled a hole though it to clear the drill and another for a clamp bolt. This is the set up. To drill the holes I started them with a centre drill then for the 3/8 a 8mm cone drill and then a letter U drill the guys at the club recommend not reaming to size but to leave it slightly under size and turn a small step on the boiler tube, this way it will have something to sit against and not fall through when you start to solder. I used the cone drill for the 3/4 as this was giving a hole that was under size on the tube again I'll take a fine skim off the tube. Here they are finished. Next job skim the boiler tube square and too length. So that the chuck won't damage the tube I turned up a wood plug a nice tight fit in the tube. With one plug in the chuck end I couldn't get the tube running true at the steady end as the tube was oval so I turned a second plug up for that end as well this pulled the ovality out of the tube. This is the set up I just could,t have done this with the 3 point steady as it was. Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 13:02:08 GMT
Things have slowed down a bit on the boiler build I've got a paying job that will take up some of my time for the next couple of week. Got a bit done drilled the holes in the Backhead sorry no pics and made a start on the boiler tube. Marking it out used the mill table as a flat face. In order to hold the tube steady for cutting I used this clamp I made it a few years back for another job:- can't remember what :scratch: Just two pieces of wood with a coach bolt. This is it in use I used a junior hacksaw to do the business, this one has a sentimental attachment for me my father made it many years ago, I didn't want to use a 12" saw as the tooth space would be too wide for the tube and tend to rip also I wanted to take it steady so I got a nice clean straight cut. As the saw was cutting at an angle I didn't take it past the line I left a bit of metal holding the tube together whilst I did the next cut. This is the next cut, the tool makers clamp is to to stop the cut ends from vibrating and making a farting noise. The with a junior blade held in a bit of brass chim complete the cuts square. This is the cut tube. The cut will be bent out to form the wings of the firebox, I tried to bend them out as cut but the copper is quite hard so I'll anneal it as I didn't want to force it. As the annealed tube will need pickling I,m at a bit of a stop until I get my pickle bathe made. I've collected one a two things together for the boiler build. The black box is a case from an industrial battery fork lift truck or something like that, and will be part of the pickle bath, the bits of ally behind it will form part of my brazing hearth. At the Harrogate show I picked up some of these blankets, for the hearth. I also have a collection of fire bricks. Getting there slowly Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 13:03:53 GMT
Well yesterday was a case of best laid skeams and all that. I'd more or less got the afternoon free to get on with the boiler, but my daughter turned up with 2 month old grandson, now if theirs anything better than a grandson for keeping a grandad out of his shop please tell me ;D, so only manages to get a little done. Cutting out the rad on the throat tube plate using jewelers saw and home made sawing table. Throat plate having first fitting to boiler tube. I annealed the boiler tube using a rough hearth pieced together with the thermalite blocks and the biggest burner I've got for my torch just to try it out, the blocks worked well but the burner scared the crap out of me talk about a roaring flame, not too easy to control, I've got two torches so using the next size burner down with both torches will give me more control when it comes to soldering. As you can see from the pic the acid bath worked will, I ended up using the acid salts only needed to make up 3 liters to cover boiler and adding about two tablespoons of salts gave me a Ph between 2 and 3 (if I'm reading the indicator paper correct) Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 13:07:47 GMT
Well yesterday was yet another case of "best laid skeams of mice and men all gang away". I could see the whole day in front of me in the shop, but I'd forgotten about the Boss, we'd booked seats for a Don McClane (of American Pie Fame) In Liverpool for the evening, but the Boss thought it would be a good idea to go early and have a wander around the shops visit the Tate modern art Gallery at the Albert Docks etc etc so strike one afternoon in the shop. Enjoyed the visit and concert though, and came across one interesting fact you guys across the pond will be interested in, theirs a very nice bronze statue at Albert Dock commemorating emigration donated to the city by the Mormon Church, it's plaque states that over 9 Million people emigrated from Europe to North America through the port of Liverpool:- just what % of the population are decended from those emigrants now :scratch: the mind boggles. Back on topic:- The wings of the fire box rapper need to be extended to do this I will have to make a joint, this can be a simple lap joint but this will take up some water space or a joggled joint, I'm going to use a joggle joint. First thing make a joggling tool, now this isn't going to be a fancy tool just dog rough and functional. Mill a bit of flat steel (garage door thanks Ralph) flat and put a groove up it 1/4" + plate thickness + a bit for luck. Then with the plate well annealed and a 1/4" square bar squeeze the plate into the grooves. This will bend it out a bit wack it back square with a bit of ally bar and a hammer. And thats the joggled joint formed. Cheers Stew PS I bet some of you guys are thinking strewth he's a quick worker, others will have worked out worker that all I've done is bring you up to date by copying and pasting a thread from another forum I've been posting the build log on, I've got the boiler completed its waiting the boiler inspector. I'll post a bit more of the log at a later date Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:18:15 GMT
Now if you've got a nervous disposition look away now:- this is going to be cheap, nasty, and as rough as the proverbial Bears arse, (If any of you guys have felt a Bears back side and lived to tell the tail I would love to know just how rough it is) But It'll do the job :proj: Making the brazing Hearth. Fist off cut a boiler size hole in the base of a large ally oven tray:- the reason for the hole will become apparent in next weekish. Then four bolts in each corner fastens it to the top of a work mate, and a bit of scrap ally sheet pop riveted to two sides makes the wind shield. Now it was a great bit of advice that I got to use Thermalite block cut in half with an old saw for insulation. (You must keep them dry) They cut like butter. :thumbup: And her we have it's all ready for the first soldering job and all for less than a ten squid, and build in an afternoon. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:19:35 GMT
I picked up the idea for the Hearth from another forum I'm just passing along someone else's ideas. Got some of the boiler bushes made whilst waiting for the rivets to arrive. The bush on the left is for the safety valve, the drawing states 3/8"*26 thread, checked with Reeves what thread they sold their safety valves with 3/8*32 so thats what I made it, the middle two are for the regulator they screw into the end plates, the one with all the holes is soldered into the boiler barrel and the steam dome fastens onto it. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:21:10 GMT
Well this has been a very frustrating week, I ordered the 1/16 copper rivets on Monday on Friday I got a call from the supplier to say they were out of stock :-\ , so I've reordered from another supplier, in the mean time I've got on with some house jobs and earned a few brownie points, and made some more bushes, and bronze screws to hold the boiler together whilst its soldered. I found that the boiler flue tubes varied in length by 1/8 they need to be all the same length or the sort ones will be at risk of coming adrift during soldering. Skimmed one end square de-burred the bore and skimmed the Dia for 3mm for a lose fit in the tube plate. Then found the shortest tube and set the hight gauge to that and marked all the other tubes off to that length. Skimmed the length to the mark and turned OD same as the other end. With all the tubes trimmed to length and a small step turned time to have a trial assembly to the tube plates. The smokebox tube plate is the wrong way round, this is because I want the end of tubes to sit flat on a plate whilst I solder the tubes to the firebox, the smokebox tube plate will be one of the last things to be soldered so I must remember to turn it round. My plan is to solder the wrapper extensions first then the throat plate and wrapper, but I need those darn rivets if I don't get them soon it will be plan B turn some 1/8 rivets down. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:21:55 GMT
Well got the first joint soldered the fire box outer rapper extension:- the part to be joined were given a soak in the pickle for 1/2 hr then throughly cleaned with some wire wool, flux applied and the extensions were loosely riveted in place. Then onto the hearth a piece of solder was cut the length of the joint and placed on the joint I did an outside and an inside joint at the same heating, and I bunged the thermal blanket up the tube to keep the heat where I wanted it. fed a little solder into the joint and onto the head of the rivets I let it cool for five minutes then quenched it in water then into the pickle for half an hour, the pickle was then washed off in water, and the joint inspected, apply another dollop of solder to the joint, then with the boiler flipped over the other way and with less solder this time and the whole lot heated up again and a little more solder fed into the joint and on the other side of the rivets. Back in to the pickle as before another clean and inspection not to happy with a couple of areas so again as before more flux and a bit more solder in the areas on concern. Here we go outside. And inside Well thats me done for the day the rest of the day will be taken up with that great British institution:- the family barbeque, that is traditionally held on the first and often only dry sunny day of the year. The pleasant sound of birds song and smell of flowers will be replaced by the sound of male of the household cussing as he struggles to get the barbeque lit and the stench of charcoal, lighter fuel, and cremated sausages. Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:22:55 GMT
Well had a master class from John this afternoon on silver soldering, we soldered the throat plate up, and I learnt a lot in the process, it really is a two man job using propane on a lump of copper like this boiler. First of all I gave the parts a good clean first in the pickle then with a wire brush, I loosely riveted the throat plate in place with four rivets one mid way on each side of the fire box and one each side of the boiler tube where the saw cut ended, closed any big gaps by tapping and pinching with pliers, and applied flux. One thing I learnt from Johns was you don't need a lot of flux I was lathering it on. This was the first set up. Sorry didn't take a lot of pics it a process where once you start you can't keep breaking off to take a pic, so you'll have to put up with my description. We placed a length of 3 mm silver solder down each side of the plate and along the back, then with me operating one torch for back ground heating and John adding the filler rod and controlling the heat with a smaller torch and instruction to me as to where to direct the background heat and when to take it off we set too, whith the top once done we flipped the boiler on its side and soldered up around the boiler tube, flipped it on the other side and ditto , allowed it to cool and have 1/2hr in the pickle a carefull inspection showed a couple of areas that needed a bit more work, so same procedure with but concentrating the heat on areas as required. This is what the job looks like. Top Inside The fillet around the curve is on the other side and as its down the bottom of the tube it doesn't take a good pic, so you'll have to believe me:- its real nice. I'll run this past the inspector. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:24:27 GMT
The boiler is for my 2-4-0 loco that I'm building, you gave me the perfect excuse to take a pic of it between the frames. The frames somewhat stripped down, I've removed the front wheel and the connecting rod so that I could trial fit the water and oil pumps. You can read the build log her madmodder.net/index.php?topic=547.0Thanks Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:25:11 GMT
Got a little more done today forming the firebox rapper:- The rapper was cut to the correct size so first job was to anneal and pickle it then mark the middle and using the end plate former get it bent roughly to shape with the help of the vice, just by hand. It was annealed and pickled again Then using the tube plates as formers and bits of woods as bats it was nocked to shape. Tomorrow's job is to solder together the flue tubes the fire box tube plate and the rapper. Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:26:20 GMT
Another master class from John on silver soldering. This is the set up for soldering the flue tubes to the firebox tube plate, stepping the tubes worked great in prevent the tube plate slipping down, I cut a bricks to length to give a bit of support. Some rings of solder were made by simply wrapping the rod around one of the tubes and snipped them off, the tube ends and tube plate were fluxed, and the solder rings placed over each of the tubes. One things John has taught me is that you don't directly heat up the solder you start by adding background heat to the job slowly bringing the flame up to where the joint is to be formed this way you gat a uniform heat in the joint. We worked with two burners one each side of the job as the solder started to melt we moved the torch slowly around so that each ring of solder was melted in turn. With the tubes fixed and after a spell in the pickle the rapper was soldered to the tube, this time the job was flipped over so that the tubes were on top, again lengths of solder were placed along the joint, and additional solder fed into the joint as it melted. Here's the job before pickle. And after Cheers Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:27:43 GMT
Then did one or two machining jobs for the boiler first up the "Fire Hole" no not the sort you get after a night down the pub and a curry, the sort they shuvel the coal through. Its made from a bit of thick wall copper tube:- a short step turned on each end so that you've got a 1/4" collar, a quick anneal and a soak in the pickle. Then a squeeze in the vice to make it oval and here it is on the backhead. Next up the bush for the water gauge, for some reason there is no dimensioned drawing for it, just a note saying 1/4* 32 thread. So this is my interpretation of what's required. Using a chunk of Phos Bronze mark it out and rough it out. This is one of those awkward jobs where if you don't machine it out in the correct order you'll end up not being able to grip it to finish the job. Then as its got to fit on the 3 1/2 " dia boiler tube, set up the boring head to cut that dia. The body of the head is 50 mm so (88.9 - 50) / 2 = 19.5 thats what the tool has to stand out above the body to cut a 3 1/2 " dia. With that set, pop the job in the vice, centre drill for the 1/4*32 zero up the DRO swap to the boring head and cut the rad. Then back to the zero position and drill for the thread. Flip it round and drill the joining hole. A clean up with a file and this is it on the boiler tube. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:28:37 GMT
Got a little bit more done today, cut the fire hole in the firebox back plate for the, just making it a nice fit just a little bit of movement from the fire hole ring. Then soldered the ring in place, and while I was at it I solder some of the bushes in the backhead. Thats a little more done. Stew
|
|
potty
Active Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by potty on Aug 9, 2010 15:29:30 GMT
The guys at the club and the boiler inspector advised me to use rivet stays as they are far easyer to put in and just as effective, as the girder stays specified in the drawing. I couldn't get any rivets long enough so decided to make some out of 3/16 copper rod, I made a little upsetting jig this is simply a 3/16 hole in a chunk of steel, split through so that the rivet can be removed. To make the rivets I cut some 40mm length of copper bar, annealed them then put one in the jig with a short length protruding grip it tight in the vice and give it a good wallop with a hammer to upset the head. You can get the idea from the pic. Another bit of advice was not to try drilling rivet hole through both plates at the same time as the drill just wonders and the stays end up crooked, best to carfully mark the two parts out and drill them separately, this is the boiler tube marked out. And the set up to hold the boiler on the mill table for drilling. Drilling the stay holes, and safety valve hole Drilling the hole for the steam dome. for some reason the steam dome hole was going off line so finished the job off with a file. Steam dome bush fitted. Steam dome bush soldered to the boiler. Drilling the stay holes in the firebox. And a trial fitting of the parts the stays are not fully assembled in place. John was coming over this afternoon to help solder the stays but it was raining so we,ve put it off until Thursday. Cheers Stew
|
|