Just to introduce myself Modelworks 9F restauration project.

[peterdebeus]

Good morning!

Long time i have been online, busy times over here....
Last weekend i did some more work on the 9F, made some more new pipework, and other small jobs that still had to be done.
I also fitted my new oil pump, and now need to make lines to the cylinders....
Wondering how you guys did that, the pump has a ''one way valve'' build in to it, so that should be good...
Will it be fine if i make a line, with a T piece, to both cylinders?....

Thanks

[peterdebeus]

already found out that its not realy the way to do it, as the oil will go to the cylinder with the lowest pressure....

How do i solve this problem, do i need a lubricator with 2 seperate pistons?

[bhk]

Hi Peter,

Without knowing how your smokebox is arranged I don't know where your stream supply splits into two, but you could feed the oil in just before this point that way both cylinders get there share of oil. Only but with this and its a big one if it splits before the superheaters it can't be done.

Cheers
Sean

[RGR 60130]

Hi Peter,

One option is to use 2 separate lubricators, 1 for each cylinder. Another is to use 1 lubricator with 2 pumps in the same oil tank. However, when using one lubricator to feed two cylinders (or even 3), it is usual to use 2 identical pipes after the T piece. In other words both pieces of pipe should be the same length and internal diameter. This also means no kinks or dents in the pipes and no burrs left inside after you have cut them. A lot has been written on the forum about lubricators recently so there's a lot of useful information readily available. I hope this helps and others will no doubt give further advice.

Reg

[Deleted]

---------on my 5" Parallel Boilered Scot I had 1 lubricator between the frames and just behind the front buffer....This fed a single pipe into the smokebox and up to an atomiser nozzle placed into the main steam pipe, just after where it had left the "Dry" reservoir and before it split into 3..The tip of the nozzle was calculated to be in mid-stream of the steam supply.....Worked a treat!!!--------

[uuu]

A theoretical thought, since the single pipe idea is known to work in practice, If the pump delivers at the same point in the engine's cycle each time, how come all the oil doesn't go to the same cylinder on each stroke? And, to the same end of that one cylinder each time?

[JDEng]

Nov 2, 2013 8:10:52 GMT uuu said:

A theoretical thought, since the single pipe idea is known to work in practice, If the pump delivers at the same point in the engine's cycle each time, how come all the oil doesn't go to the same cylinder on each stroke? And, to the same end of that one cylinder each time?

It works on a ratchet so it takes the pump several strokes of the steam cylinders (or revolutions of the wheels) to go from back dead centre to front dead centre. The oil is delivered gradually over the length of the pump's stroke.

Personal opinion, but I think you are better delivering the oil from a single pipe BEFORE any division in the main steam pipe if you are using a single ram pump (as per Hagley's post), that way the steam is delivered equally to either cylinder and is well atomised before it gets there. As has been said, you can experience problems with delivery if you put a "tee" in a delivery pipe.

If you're using a two pump lubricator it doesn't matter.

Regards,

John.

[ejparrott]

For my preference, a single tank with two pumps, and with a division in the tank so that you can see that both pumps are working. If you have two pumps in one tank, how do you know both are pumping?

[Deleted]

----------- If I might just add from earlier}-- Later, for entirely non-related reasons( a moved, centre-cylinder slide valve) I lifted the boiler.. I took the opportunity to inspect all 3 steam chests and found them to be properly lubricated with little signs of wear......When I first came to own this loco it had a V-twin pump (Honestly !!) on either running board with piping for one ram per cylinder apiece and one spare....It looked a right mess!...but the engine itself was basically sound and the boiler a prolific producer of the "invisible" stuff ......( who's going to fall into that little trap then (LoL)....They were replaced by the aforementioned single, conventional unit between the frames and attached to the front buffer beam, being driven by the front axle eccentric from the redundant bypass pump, and connected with a piece of 1/8" welding rod at the time(later improved with some plain mild steel).......Some research gave me the design for the smoke deflectors and thus we had the beginnings of a better looking LMS Scot....Re-Springing and balancing ( I use the official diagrams to get a % axle weight), plus some machining within the bogie frame to increase lateral clearances and we see the first steaming after all that in this attachment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EDIT}-- If you close-in on the running plate you can just see where the r/h v-pump was fitted.....Also the whole plate in between the front frames can be lifted out for access to the pump's lid ( double protection against ash, etc)......As per full size there was just a thin hint of oil on the chimney rear lip when working, that plus the "Dalmatian Driver" look at the end of an afternoons session gave visual confirmation of lubing...

Attachments:

[uuu]

Nov 2, 2013 9:51:15 GMT JDEng said:

It works on a ratchet so it takes the pump several strokes of the steam cylinders (or revolutions of the wheels) to go from back dead centre to front dead centre. The oil is delivered gradually over the length of the pump's stroke.

Regards,

John.

Yes, but the ratchet is always advanced at the same point as the wheel revolves. So even though it's only delivering a fraction of a blob (or nothing during the suction phase), it's timing never varies. But the things clearly works, so I ought to stop muddying the waters!

[Deleted]

--------- Wasn't he a well known Blues and Jazz singer (Muddy Waters) ??

[uuu]

[Deleted]

------- cool dude !!

[peterdebeus]

Thanks again for all the helpfull answers, i have looked into the smokebox for some while, and i think its verry difficult to get an even amount of oil to both cylinders.
There are 2 seperate steam pipes from the regulator valve, into the superheater, and to the cylinders, there is a conection pipe just after the super heater, but you never know what happens inside of that, think its there to make the pressure equal in both cylinders, will still be the question where the oil is going....

Think i choose for the safe way, so now going to see where i can buy a oil pump with a double output....
any good ideas??

Peter

[RGR 60130]

Peter,

If you have decided on 2 pumps in one tank then this one should be OK.

www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/d-no.asp?ProductID=170&Process=1

Reg

[Deleted]

Hi PETER---------- would you take a photo of the smokebox insides please ?? I don't recognise the description you have just given....Remember my lubricator was feeding 3 cylinders, not the 2 you have...(Only trying to save him some money, REG.).....

[peterdebeus]

Its al a bit dirty in there, but gives you an indication, on top of the picture, you can see 2 small pipes from the regulator.
They go in to a horizontal pipe, from that pipe there are 2 pipes that are the superheater, and after the superheater
there is another horizontal pipe with 2 exits to the cylinders.

[peterdebeus]

And i have this conection on both of the cylinders.

[Deleted]

Thanks PETER.. That top horizontal tube is referred to as the "Wet Header" because it takes the steam as first produced, (which still has some water content, sometimes called "Saturated Steam")---- then passes it through the SUPERHEATER, ----- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheater ------ which then comes out into the lower horizontal tube, known as the "Dry Header" ( Because by now the steam has absorbed MORE HEAT whilst in the SUPERHEATER TUBES and the saturation has mostly gone---depending on the AMOUNT of superheat involved ---- Thus the steam is now DRY but with a lot more LATENT ENERGY contained within it)....That second photo shows where the lube oil is fed individually into the 2 cylinders.............. You COULD alter the smokebox internal piping to give just the one oil feed but that's a lot of uncalled-for work....The pump that REG has in mind will be ideal for that set-up I would say..........PS, Very good photos, they expanded nicely and kept their definition....

[peterdebeus]

Thank you for your answer that explains a lot to me about how the superheater system works!

I was also realy impressed with the pictures, i think im getting now how the camera works, and how to resize the pictures without
changing the quality and the definitions.... and because of my age, i was ''born'' with computers... that helps haha