Second Ownership of DIY Boilers

[SteveW]

Guys,

This may have already been raised here but... I was chatting to a guy at work about boilers, he's just about to start another traction engine boiler, and he tells me that the effect of the new pressure regulations is to destroy the second hand value of your pride and joy becuase no one is going to want to buy it.

His outline was that it was OK to sell on an engine with a boiler made to all the specs by a competent but uncertified constructor but the new owner cannot then re-sell the engine as a go'er.

It follows that all the old magnificent engines seen at auction, eBay etc could well be destined for museum pieces only. Or am I missing something?

[chris vine]

Hi Steve,

My understanding on this is that as long as the boiler/locomotive/traction engine etc has not been used in a commercial sense, then it is OK to sell it as we always have done, ie as a go'er.

I read this fairly recently, possibly in ME or EIM...?

Chris.

[greasemonkey]

Hi Steve
As I understand the regs having spoken to the various officating bodies and proffesional boiler inspectors the situation is this;
The pressure vessel regs dont permit the DIY enthusiast to make boilers for sale. Any boiler made post pressure vessel regs that is intended for sale has to be CE marked. The 'loophole' is that a DIY constructor can make a boiler for himself and as long as the constructor has used the boiler, on the model, he can then sell it. So for example chap A makes a model that he intends to sell but doesnt want to purchase a profesional boiler. So long as when he completes the model he is the first person to steam it round the local track a couple of times then it wil be deeemed as having be made for personal use and can then be subsequently sold. The problems start to arise for the next owner unless they have got provenance to prove the boilers age and original constructor/owner information. The only sure way is that if you buy a model you need to get its complete boiler history as well and the best way is with the original twice times ticket. If however you purchase a model that has no provenance and an unused boiler then your fun and games can be in proving when it was made (ie pre 2000 pressure vessel regs) and by whom, as theoretically unless the builder first steams the engine then the boiler cant be sold and you cant use it!!! The get out here is to sell the engine with the boiler seperatley as a lump of copper and let the buyer take the risk. So I advise you to make sure that if anything happens to you then your other half needs to know where the boiler tickets are kept as they will utimatley increase the value of your investment.
I may of course be wrong any other thoughts?
Andy

[abby]

Sounds like another example of the "nanny state " running wild , my view is that ,like motor sports , spectators should do so at their own risk . For our own safety it makes good sense to test the boiler annually to 2 X working pressure , but somewhere we have to draw a line on what is reasonable and what is infringing on liberty. Changing the subject a little has anyone any experience in drawing copper tube , I have an itch to have a go at making my own seamless boiler barrels.

[SteveW]

Guys,

Thanks for the info. I have a boiler kit from Reeves pre 2K and the only paper work was the newspaper it came wrapped in. This sort-of stuffs the provenance aspect of source materials. I think what's being said is: "It is/is going to be a nightmare".

Re drawing a boiler barrel: I've done thick walled 1/4" ID copper to 5/16" OD but a boiler barrel.... Wow! Have you considered 'Lost Wax'? ;D

[greasemonkey]

Hi Steve
If you have a boiler kit that is unmade then your fine, the rules apply to complete boilers, and as yet we amatures are not required to use tracable materials.

Andy

[Laurie_B]

If I remember correctly,a few years ago the Department of Trade and Industry (that is what is left of it in this country) brought in the Pressure Equipment Regulations to cover the construction of new pressure vessels,and the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations to cover existing kit.This legislation refined and replaced the previous Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Container Regulations 1989.
The D.T.I. became aware of boilers made for model locomotives and engines and initially felt that such boilers should be covered by the new legislation.
However various bodies connected with model engineering were in discussion with the DTI,and whereas commercial makers of model boilers are now obliged to meet certain requirements,the model engineering hobby generally escaped the regulatory requirements,if agreeing to operating a voluntary Code of Practice in lieu thereof.
As far as I am aware,there is no legal restriction on the resale of model engine boilers,whether built by the trade or by model engineers working on their own.Whether the purchaser of said boiler then wished to operate the boiler 'at the club track' or in some public place,he/she would then have to ensure that his/her boiler complied with that current Code of Practice,which incidently now calls for four-yearly hydraulic pressure tests (to 1.5 times design pressure),with yearly,intermediate steaming tests.However any commercially made model boiler,built under the P.E.R. should be accompanied by the appropriate documentation should it change hands.
As far as I am aware,if a model boiler,irrespective of its origin,passes these requirements,the owner should be ok.
Regarding the construction of new boilers by model engineers not engaged in trade,they are supposed to have the boiler examined by their M.E. club boiler inspector at various stages during the construction,prior to an initial hydraulic pressure test to 2x the design pressure.
I think anyone considering purchasing a second hand steam engine should look very closely at what documentation relates to the boiler.Otherwise it is a case of Caveat Emptor,ie,Buyer Beware!

[albertsell]

I agree with Laurie B,as to 2nd hand boilers either make sure the paper work with it is OK,OR if you are desperate to buy ask the seller to get the boiler tested IE no boiler test cert NO buy.If the seller will not get a cert. then consider the boiler duff.
Albert

[GeorgeRay]

Abby
I would be very unhappy with a pressure test to twice working pressure annually, this is overstressing the boiler much more than is neccessary and it will do a copper boiler no good at all. The latest regulations call for 1 1/2 times working pressure at an interval not greater than 4 years for copper. The interval is set by the boiler inspector. Of course the steam test is an annual test now, and this is much more important since it is intended to demonstate that the safety valves are continuing to perform their intended function.

George

[ron]

I sold a copper loco boiler recently, pressure tested by me to one and a half times and stated on the advert, got a good price and plenty of interest, I can only assume from this that the legislation doesn't bother a lot of people.
We seem to be living in a society where one half spend their lives making rules for the other half to ignore, or maybe I'm just getting cynical.
Ron

[John Lee]

ron said:

I sold a copper loco boiler recently, pressure tested by me to one and a half times and stated on the advert, got a good price and plenty of interest, I can only assume from this that the legislation doesn't bother a lot of people.
We seem to be living in a society where one half spend their lives making rules for the other half to ignore, or maybe I'm just getting cynical.
Ron

I think Ron there is a lack of knowledge out there about the regulations as well at "not being bothered". It's clear enough...first test ONLY to twice pressure, subsequent tests to 1 1/2.. if its copper it has work hardened by then and twice pressure is subjecting it to unecessary abuse.

Other than that, get a boiler inspector to do the paperwork, steam it before you sell it (see how many models for sale have been steamed once only) and you are not affected as a private individual as far as I can tell.

To be frank this is just putting into law what most sensible people have done all along, so at least you know what you are getting if you buy. Even in the privacy of your own home, where I agree I will do what the h**l I want despite any regulations, I do not want a boiler blowing up.

Regards,

John

[Deleted]

I think you have your finger on it there Ron: "We seem to be living in a society where one half spend their lives making rules for the other half to ignore"
One of my clients has a manager who indulges in every regulation possible. Recently I had the following very silly scenario:
I was instructed that all electrical equipment brought on site must be PAT tested, despite the fact that only I am allowed to use such equipment.
I pointed out that the pallet next to us was loaded nearly 0.75 metres above the maximum allowed on a notice with her initials appended, attached to the wall alongside the pallet! Her answer was to wave her arms a little and make mumbled excuses! Furthermore she was unable to explain why a gate opening onto a 3.5 meter sheer drop was open at all times, when the notice alongside clearly states that it should be closed at all times.
It would seem to me that a lot of these regulations are just generating work for self important busy bodies who have no real conception of the dangers involved in the workplace.
Sorry I'm ranting!

[abby]

Steve - that was the plan - to cast a thick walled piece of copper pipe and then draw it down to finished size . The dilemma is should it be pushed through the die or pulled. As I am only working on G1 with 60 lb max pressure it is not really excessive to test to 120 lbs. In the past I have simply filled them with water with a gauge in the safety valve hole and applied gentle heat , is this enough ? or must they be steamed to the test pressure ? Has anyone seen or heard of a major model boiler failure in a public setting ? I once blew the end off a mamod as a kid but I had put a screw in the safety valve hole !

[alanstepney]

"Only 60psi...."
That is enough to do serious damage to yourself and anyone else who is nearby.

Please dont ever take pressure lightly.
If you wish to, work out the total area of the boiler, multiply that by the pressure, and the resultant may well surprise you.

As for actual boiler explosions /catastrophic failures in our hobby, the last one that I have been able to trace that resulted in injury was in 1927 or '28, but there have been others where nobody was hurt (or werent reported). One happened at a northern club in the early 90's, but thatwas due to manually moving an engine in steam without due care, and exposing the firebox crown.

So, generally a superb safety record, but it is in everybodys interest to make sure it stays that way.

[Laurie_B]

Couldn't agree more Alan.Boilers can be potentially dangerous.An uncle of mine owned a Mamod type steam engine many years ago.It operated at a fairly low pressure.One day while the boiler exploded.He still has a scar on his forehead,and even though he is now 88 years old,he still remembers just how dangerous this incident was.
The whole issue of boiler inspections came about in the latter part of the 19th century,when as many people were killed on a daily basis as a result of boiler explosions,as are killed on the roads of Britain nowadays.
The initial schemes for boiler inspections/insurance were voluntary.It then took nearly thirty years for the examination of boilers to become mandatory.
Quite a number of model engineering websites carry details of the current requirements such as :
www.nadmes.org.uk/pages/resources/boil_test.asp#hsenote
www.communigate.co.uk/wilts/northwiltsmes/page21.phtml

It should be noted that the energy contained in a boiler is determined by the 'bar-litre' figure,ie., by multiplying the pressure by the volume,which is even greater figure than muliplying the pressure by the total area.

[NigelMuskett]

In the past I have simply filled them with water with a gauge in the safety valve hole and applied gentle heat , is this enough ? or must they be steamed to the test pressure ?

Can someone please tell me that I am not reading this that a 1.5x or 2x working pressure test is achieved by the use of heat!

Nigel

[spurley]

Hi Nigel

The majority, hopefully all!, of club boiler inspectors will conduct the initial and subsequent hydraulic tests using a hand pump rig connected to a boiler completely full of cold water. The first test will be, as quoted elsewhere, to 2 X working pressure and then subsequent biannual (every two years if that's not the right word) will be to 1 1/2X working pressure. EG: for 80 PSI boiler working pressure; first test will be 160 PSI then subsequent two yearly ones will be to 120 PSI.

Steam tests are carried out annually to the normal working pressure of the boiler. The only addition to this is the 'accumulation test'; this is done to validate the safety valve function. The fire is made up and blower turned on to make the boiler create steam, once the working pressure is reached the safety valve(s) should lift and not allow the pressure to rise more than 10% above working pressure in a 5 minute period. So, again for an 80 PSI boiler the pressure should not exceed 88 PSI. The upshot of this test, at our club at least, has been for several older boiler to have required modification to the orifice from the safety valves to allow the boiler to pass.

There is an old school of thought/practice that proscribed filling the boiler and then heating the closed vessel to expand the contents for a pressure test! The only fitting would be the pressure gauge which sounds pretty hairy to me.

Cheers

Brian

[Malcolm]

The use of GENTLE heat to pressure test a boiler totally filled with water is perfectly safe, even if a bit inexact as regards accurate control. The amount of energy contained is negligible, since water is virtually incompressible. If one, stupidly, persisted with the heating, the boiler would distort until something gave way, but there would be no explosion. That said, a drain valve would be a sensible addition.

[ron]

As a matter of interest the pressure test and safety valve lift used to be done every 14 months on industrial boilers [don't ask me why?]
Ron

[alanstepney]

Yes, you can use just heat to raise pressure in a boiler, and it IS safe, but ONLY if you ensure that there is no air at all in the boiler.

Try standing the boiler in the sun for a little while, and watch the pressure rise.
Or apply enough heat to raise the pressure, which wont be enough to make it too hot to handle.

Any leak will result in a jet of warm water, but no explosion, provided that all air has been evacuated.

Among other writers, LBSC mentioned this method many times.