New section idea - equipment *opinions*

[havoc]

Well, it is indeed wide ranging. But do you think that with the current layout you will attract clock builders? But I admit it is difficult to change a forum layout after it has been running for some time. Adding is possible, but shrinking is not easy.

[steamjohn248]

I agree with John Lee.

But

How do you define a "kit" builder? How about a loco in which every possible concievable part from tank top door flanges , to motion, frames etc. has been profiled by a man with a machine that can produce in seconds/minutes, that which would take us hours/days/weeks. all we have to do is finish the job (Including for instance jig boring holes to size). The plumbing is off the shelf, the boiler is out to contract, (horses for courses) and we can get on with turning wheel blanks and machining castings that someone else has made the patterns for and cast. It does'nt arrive in a series of cardboard boxes to be assembled on the kitchen table with a knife and fork ,but its still a kit in many ways, in that an awfull lot of the bits have been made , in some degree, by someone else.

I suspect that means we are not 'Model Engineers" simply engineers building a smaller than full size engine.

Having said that I scan this site almost daily, I make comments, (some of which seem to be of use to others judging by my messages), and most of all I ask questions and get answers from 'real' model engineers that I value and appreciate highly.

As a non model engineer (by definition) I think it would be a great shame if the purists were to cold shoulder the "kit builders" and "short cutters" like us and discourage them from hopefully finding a fairly painless (except for the wallet), entry into the world of miniature steam engines, rail or otherwise. Some of them, if receiving a friendly welcome from the 'last of the few' may buy a lathe and turn into the real thing! (provided there are enough people alive and willing to help them).

Tool room trained men are a dying breed , (literally), and unless "kit builders" wether of the knife and fork and cardboard box persuasion, or like us, people too old to contemplate spending ten years building an engine, are encouraged and helped, the skills and knowledge now still available will be lost.

Steamjohn

[Lurkio]

Re John Lee's post.

I like controversy!
Regarding 'Kit Builders not really being Model Engineers', I think you are echoing a sentiment actually held by many, but not often put into words!
Engineering is full of these divisions, and I've read of snide comments aimed by some at kit builders.
I have no objections to any modelers who are 'just' kit builders. There's still a lot of basic fitting work for a beginner to tackle.
Some problems evidently need engineering skills to correct.
I'll go further and say that, though I am a time-served mech. engineer, if I had the spare cash I'd buy a kit loco myself....a fairly quick route to a (hopefully) superb model. I'm sure there are others of the same mind. In fact many skilled engineers must have taken to kit building by choice for a number of reasons, not least the time required to build from scratch.
There's great satisfaction in building anything from scratch, though, and for me it's a long slog ahead!

Back to the topic....admin will have a difficult job pleasing everyone. I'd say the need to look at new sections is an indication of the success of this forum.

Lurkio.

[havoc]

If you want to make the distinction between builders and engineer, then it becomes a bigger problem than you think. Very often, Engineers were/are people that do a complete design, and leave the building of it to someone else. They might have (had) the knowledge to do so if inclined, but most of them have/had a skilled team of tradesman behind then.

Stephenson and Brunel were 2 great engineers that designed a lot of engines, but I don't think they made their own patterns, cast the metal and then filed it until it fitted. Neither do I doubt that if needed they would have done it.

If I had the money, I would do some real model engineering: drawing plans and let a workshop make the pieces. (I would also play with the results...)

[Lurkio]

Havoc, you're right....what's an engineer? After all, we now have 'Java Engineers' etc.
But when I started out in the trade we were told we would be 'mechanical engineers' because we would (maybe!) be able to design, build and maintain mechanical equipment when trained. Things have changed of course, but that's how I personally still like to think of a traditional 'engineer'.
I have to watch what I write so as not to upset other trades!
It follows for me that a 'model engineer' has those qualities and applies them to the world of model mechanical devices.

Lurkio.

[ericcee]

I know we are now way off thread, but as a kit-builder, I just have to stick my nose in here!

I reckon Lurkio and Havoc have got it right - I don't think we should get hung up on the definition of "engineer" - just remember that the word shares its roots with the word "ingenious" and you've got it all! I think "ingenuity" is the common characteristic of us all in this hobby.

I have spent the last 40+ years designing, building and maintaining computer software that did "useful" work in a commercial environment. In the last decade or so, I have come to regard myself as a "virtual engineer" - or, to be pedantic, a designer of virtual machines. Just like any other mechanical or electronic device, these have the classic input/process/output structure. And, just like any other mechanical device, you can alter parameters (open the regulator, adjust the cut-off, or update the exchange rate) and the output will be modified.
So - I think I can honestly claim to be an "engineer".
But then, I always wanted to be a civil engineer, building bridges, railways and such things!

However, on retirement, I decided to get into "model engineering" by buying a kit or two and, in so doing, I am buying time - someone else's time - because, as I have said elsewhere on this forum, I want to get to play with these steam-powered mechanical devices while I am fit enough - I can't (or don't want to) spend time acquiring the skills needed to build from scratch before I can enjoy such playing. In the process, I am learning basic fitting and fettling skills, acquiring tools and the skill to use them, and, before very long, I hope to start on a Stuart Turner Beam Engine (is that set of castings and materials a kit or not?) when, I hope, I will acquire basic turning and milling skills.

A few months back, I gave a short presentation to my fellow members at the Sunderland ME Society, aided (of course) by a PowerPoint "slide-show" from my lap-top computer, describing the building of my Maxitrak Jack kit, to deliberately provoke a discussion on whether or not kit-building was "proper" model engineering. The concensus was that it was a perfectly valid route into real model engineering.

Those of you who have had the benefit of apprenticeships and real work experience in a machine shop are lucky - you can apply the skills you were paid to acquire to your hobby. The rest of us have to learn the hard way!

Back to the thread topic!
I don't think we need a new section to cover "equipment opinions" - I have learned a lot about all sorts of things just by regular browsing of this forum because each thread can spin off into all sorts of interesting digressions - just like this one!

Enough for now - I'm starting to waffle!

EC

[John Lee]

Ahhh thats not waffle ericcee, a perfectly valid viewpoint IMHO.

I thought that might cause some comment

My only real point though was that the forum, as Havoc originally pointed out, does appear to have lots of sub forums about kit building, even down to individual models, yet other very valuable bits of information are easily lost in the "noise", because of a lack of suitable places to post them rather than "General"

The problem is, of course, how to sub divide a subject that itself has many areas of interest. And they have cross overs.. a traction engine builder needs to know how to cut gears (or puts the job out ;D) as does a clock maker...

John

[Laurie_B]

The idea behind models built on a kit basis is a very good one.It brings people into model engineering who otherwise would not be able to participate.
Not everyone is trained to use lathes,milling machines etc and to work from scratch.So kits,in my view,are an excellent way of allowing everyone to 'have a go'.
To try and differentiate between 'model engineers' and 'kit builders' suggests a certain,unwelcome elitism.Remember,this is a hobby that doesn't seem as popular as it was,say,twenty or thirty years ago.
I am still surprised that a web forum dedicated to model engineering (in it's widest sense) doesn't have a "Workshop" section.

[abby]

Would anyone turn up their nose at a set of laser cut frames , not me ! I value the unknown amount of time I have left too much to spend it hacksawing and filing for no good reason , and I am sure this goes for most modelers . If I want something and it is available ready made at a price I can afford then I would buy it , and spend the time saved making something that isn't available. I want to see the wheels go round.
Hope you all want my "DOT" kit when its ready LOL !

[ron]

On the subject of separate sections I thought having a separate one for Simplex was a good idea at the time, but I'm not so sure now, questions I've asked on it would probably have had a bigger response if they's been posted in the general section, so now if I have a specific Simplex question that could be of interest to others I think I would tend to post it in the general section.

On the subject of kit building I think it's up to the individual to decide what they want to make and what they want to buy, I set out to try and build Simplex from scratch but I draw the line at valves and fittings etc, I can make them but can't be bothered spending all weekend making something I can buy for a few quid, same also applied to some lazer cut parts, they are so cheap for the amount of menial effort they avoid that it's hard not to use them.
I think kit building will possibly be a major part of the future of model engineering, the generation like myself who served an engineering apprenticeship won't last forever and I don't see a generation coming up being taught the skills.
There is also the financial aspect, LBSCs generation probably had to make everything because money was tight and parts weren't available, nowadays most people in work have plenty cash to indulge expensive hobbies so things evolve and suppliers have appeared, it would certainly be foolish not to encourage all aspects of model engineering even if one doesn't particularly agree with it.

I'm not convinced of the need for an 'opinions' section mainly because people who have had a bad experience tend to make more noise than those who got satisfaction.

Ron

[paul]

ron said:

I'm not convinced of the need for an 'opinions' section mainly because people who have had a bad experience tend to make more noise than those who got satisfaction.
Ron

If it's a legitimate complaint then it might be worth others seeing it before they part with their hard-earned though. Personally I've bough some stuff in the last month that has been good and some that has been rubbish and I'm sure some people (noobs like me for example) would appreciate users opinions.

On the subject of the Simplex section you should check your images thread LOL!