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Post by delaplume on Dec 2, 2018 16:22:59 GMT
Hi Roger, Yes, I'd posted that 57xx photo as I knew of it in my collection......Have just downloaded this of 1501 and I see what you mean....Do you fancy another day at the SVR ??.......I might still have some "Clout" with the guys !!  |
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Post by Roger on Dec 2, 2018 19:27:42 GMT
Hi Roger, Yes, I'd posted that 57xx photo as I knew of it in my collection......Have just downloaded this of 1501 and I see what you mean....Do you fancy another day at the SVR ??.......I might still have some "Clout" with the guys !! Hi Alan, Although I've got 1000 photos of 1501, I don't seem to have that one! Thanks for that. I'd hoped to spend a day with you over the Summer but that was scuppered by family issues. Another trip to the SVR sounds good. I did manage a very cold footplate session last winter when I happened to be really close and it seemed a wasted opportunity to be so close and not to try to wangle a visit. They were most kind and left me alone to freeze while I took hundreds more pictures and sketches. You can never have too many, so another photo session would be very welcome. I'll tie up with you in the Spring when the better weather arrives. |
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,918
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 2, 2018 20:42:08 GMT
Hi Roger,
As you know I agree with pault, but I have had 2 locos with axlepumps; my first - a heavily modified Don Young Railmotor, and Ffestiniog Railway 'Linda'. 'Linda' had an axle pump fitted so that my youngest daughter Emma could drive 'Linda' without having to worry about using the injectors 'on the run' - Emma was only about 5 or 7 at the time.
In both cases I knew a quarter turn on the bypass valve would maintain the water level, and no doubt you will arrive at something similar judging the amount the bypass needs to be opened if you use the axlepump.
In both cases, you could not see the outlet pipe from the bypass valve, and in both cases you would be unable to reach over or see same from the tank fillers, even if the pipes had been underneath them anyway - whilst the loco was 'on the run'.
There is no way you would be able to lift up a tank filler lid on Speedy whilst driving and 'on the run' to see the outlet of the bypass if so directed there!
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by delaplume on Dec 2, 2018 22:30:43 GMT
Maybe if you incorporated a form of flow indicator such as fitted to the old fashioned petrol pumps ??..........Route the return pipe into the front corner of the cab and going vertical..........If your return pipe is say 5/16" O/D then fit a length of 3/4" O/D plastic pipe in the middle section with a B & W spinner within its' centre....  |
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,918
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 2, 2018 22:55:02 GMT
Hi Alan,
Nice to see those old petrol pumps. However, getting back on topic, most of us know how much water our locos have used doing one lap, and know by experience when to top up the tanks or tender. You also ought to be able to judge how much water the boiler is boiling and being consumed as steam by the cylinders.
I have a low opinion of the general standard of miniature locomotive driving and firing and the general lack of competency, and lack of attention to detail.
I have no doubt that Roger's meticulous approach extends to driving miniature locos, as I have experienced myself witnessing his driving miniature locos, and no doubt he analyses these things in the same way I do.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by Roger on Dec 2, 2018 23:08:40 GMT
Hi Alan, All clever stuff, but I don't think it's necessary. I'm definitely looking into ways to indicate the level of water in the side tanks in the cab though. While I'm working on the frames, I need to know what, if anything needs to be added to them to accommodate the blowdown valves. I've modelled these loosely on various pictures and made them of a size that's appropriate for the connections I need to the boiler. As usual, the groove in the left of the threaded stub is for an 'O' ring.  Everlasting valve assembly by Roger Froud, on Flickr The internals are like this. The green valve has a reduced diameter that goes through the arm. The cavity on the inlet side is to make sure there's no pressure on the back of the arm as it opens.  Everlasting valve assembly section1 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Again, as usual, there's a 1mm section 'O' ring sealing the parts together.  Everlasting valve assembly section by Roger Froud, on Flickr There's also a 1mm section 'O' ring on the shaft seal. The arm and the actuating lever are secured by a hex and an M2.5 nut.  Everlasting valve assembly ghost section by Roger Froud, on Flickr The two are handed so that the both move outwards to open using two separate levers. The LH one is shown closed, the RH one is shown open. The outlet goes to a banjo fitting so it can be fed downwards and out through a pipe.  Blow down valves in situ by Roger Froud, on Flickr You can just see the tops of the levers over the top of the frames. I'm probably going to make the pull rods so that they have a thin flat that rests on the top of the frame and a shoulder that stops them moving outwards. To open them, you would lift the levers clear of the frame and pull them. They wouldn't be too obtrusive when closed and it's really simple to make. This is one thing I was struggling to figure out a solution for. In the end, it's worked out to be easy. I know that some come out through the frame, but that would get in the way of the wheel without an extension rod. That's the way it's done on one BR drawing I've got, but I have no idea how it's done on 1501 You can also see the balance pipe on this image. It will have the corners rounded off so it's not quite so angular. The idea is to have an 'O' ring arrangement to seal that, but I've not finalised the design at this point.  20170325_171542 by Roger Froud, on Flickr |
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Post by Roger on Dec 2, 2018 23:17:21 GMT
Hi Alan, Nice to see those old petrol pumps. However, getting back on topic, most of us know how much water our locos have used doing one lap, and know by experience when to top up the tanks or tender. You also ought to be able to judge how much water the boiler is boiling and being consumed as steam by the cylinders. I have a low opinion of the general standard of miniature locomotive driving and firing and the general lack of competency, and lack of attention to detail. I have no doubt that Roger's meticulous approach extends to driving miniature locos, as I have experienced myself witnessing his driving miniature locos, and no doubt he analyses these things in the same way I do. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, I'm hoping that the design of the Superheaters is going to have a positive impact on the amount of water being used. The only radiant Superheaters I've seen have much thicker walls than mine, so I'm hoping that they will respond much more quickly than if they were thick. Time will tell. I've driven a sick locomotive without Superheaters that needed the blower on almost flat out and the bypass valve closed to keep up with the losses. That's a miserable and extreme experience that I'm keen to avoid at all costs. I'd much rather have tons in reserve and have to think more about stopping it blowing off than that. Having well designed valve gear ought to help that too, and hopefully it will notch up nicely and save even more steam. I'm still very much a novice, either running light on a private fun day or slugging it out with continuous full trains where you've got to really keep on top of things. I'm itching to play with mine now and really learn what this is all about. |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 2, 2018 23:33:29 GMT
Hi Alan, Nice to see those old petrol pumps. However, getting back on topic, most of us know how much water our locos have used doing one lap, and know by experience when to top up the tanks or tender. You also ought to be able to judge how much water the boiler is boiling and being consumed as steam by the cylinders. I have a low opinion of the general standard of miniature locomotive driving and firing and the general lack of competency, and lack of attention to detail. I have no doubt that Roger's meticulous approach extends to driving miniature locos, as I have experienced myself witnessing his driving miniature locos, and no doubt he analyses these things in the same way I do. Cheers, Julian You and me both Julian------It never ceases to surprise me that a person spends a great deal of their time, money and effort in making an accurate physical reproduction in miniature then sets off around the club track in glorious isolation, at breakneck speed, in full gear all the time, with the handpump lever sticking up into the sky ( a particular favourite of yours Julian !!), does only one lap and says}--- "I can drive a steam engine" ....... One chap I know drives in the same way as he does his car ie}---the regulator is constantly being open and shut whilst the reverser is left in full gear ... Out of interest how many "Drivers" out there can actually drive on the reverser ??------- and know why this method is preferred ?? Julian--- will we see you up here next year ??--------Pete Dawson and I (Plus a few others ) have moved on from Kinver now..... Roger--- your last post just beat mine...I think there is a blowdown valve on 1501 at the lower part of the boiler outer backhead ( Doorplate to some folk ) and is accessible via a removable steel plate within the footplate and can be found just in front of the firehole doors.......but I'm not too sure of that.... |
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Post by David on Dec 3, 2018 1:37:52 GMT
I can't drive my current loco on the reverser, it is slip eccentric! I tried to drive the club loco on the reverser once because it has a johnson bar rather than interminable winding and it bunny hopped along (at best) at anything other than full gear. I asked what was wrong with it and learned Hackworth valve gear isn't much good for notching up. I've also been told Allan straight link isn't up to much in this regard so there goes all our 50 class standard goods if they're built to prototype design.
We're just playing toy trains here - efficiency is nice if you can do it but if someone can get around the track without running out of fire, water, or steam and not hold everyone up I don't care how they get there. Actually, I don't much care if they do run out of any or all of the above - they're already having a bad day so no need to make them feel worse. And with the water woes I've suffered for the past couple of years I wouldn't blame anyone for fitting an axle and/or hand pump. Only running with injectors requires too many things to be exactly right or you're in for a stressful time. 'The water is too hot' sounds as absurd as 'the wrong kind of snow'!
I assume the benefit of driving on the reverser is that the inlet steam circuit is held at a more constant pressure because the regulator is wide open all the time so can compensate more quickly when you ask the ports to stay open longer for more oomph. Maybe I'll try it when the B class is finished and I'm used to firing and driving it. Assuming the valve gear is any good (I don't doubt the design, but the implementation remains to be proved!)
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Post by delaplume on Dec 3, 2018 4:22:56 GMT
Spot-on David, you're quite right with those observations and I should have drawn my horns in a little.........for which I apologise.... On here there seems to be a tendency to believe that 5" gauge is the be-all and end-all of miniature railways...well I think the 7.25" and 10" people might have a view on that ....and also Stephenson / Walshaerts are the only valve gears in use.....Not so, of course.. Good old slip-eccentric--- how many of us started out on that I wonder ??....... "The water too hot" and "The wrong kind of snow" are actually technically ok, it's more a case of bad phrase choice by the Railways' PR Dept. If I might explain a little ?? }---- First off is injectors which are based on a heat difference ( among other things ) to operate...Have a look at this book for all your answers}------ www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/operation-valve-gears-injectors/miniature-injectors-inside-and-out/ ----------- So if the feedwater is not cold, contains air or impurities, its' flow rate restrained by poor pipe routing / kink, leaky clack valve on boiler, it won't work at all or poorly at best.... "Wrong kind of snow" ??---- This refers to very fine, powder snow getting past the filter mesh on an electric traction motor and compromising the armature and its' workings...or so I've been told........Possibly other mechanical things can be effected also ?? Fully open regulator means no "wire-drawing" effect and maximum pressure maintained at all times in the steam chest or manifold prior to entering via the valves moving.... "More oomph" ( I do like that analogy---seems to fit the bill just right ) and longer open ports equates to full gear..and this is when large quantities of steam are being made to travel at great velocity in order to fill the cylinder space above the piston... When driving--- you now have the regulator wide open ( on second valve in some cases ) and you have got the reverser up to say 50%....If you continue to "Link-up" slowly you'll reach a point where you can feel the valve gear starting to "Kick back" at the screw reverser.....So you'll wind it forwards slowly feeling for when it stops "Kicking back"....With the train now up to operational speed you only have to adjust every now and then.. There's a good film on you-tube on the footplate of The Duke of Gloucester with a main line train train rattling along with the Driver quietly sat there and every now and then he'll do a small adjustment to the setting......whilst his Fireman needs to do very little in the way of coal-- just the odd use of one injector to top-up, he has the other one on full-time to balance the bulk of steady consumption.... If you average the weight of a fully loaded BR Mk.1 coach at 35 tons ??------- then with 12 on the drawbar that's in the region of 420 tons----plus the loco at 120 tons total then 560 tons travelling at 60 mph is a lot of momentum.........You can shut the regulator, wind to "Coast" position and loose maybe only 10 mph over a mile or so.... |
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Post by Roger on Dec 3, 2018 8:08:48 GMT
Hi Alan, Nice to see those old petrol pumps. However, getting back on topic, most of us know how much water our locos have used doing one lap, and know by experience when to top up the tanks or tender. You also ought to be able to judge how much water the boiler is boiling and being consumed as steam by the cylinders. I have a low opinion of the general standard of miniature locomotive driving and firing and the general lack of competency, and lack of attention to detail. I have no doubt that Roger's meticulous approach extends to driving miniature locos, as I have experienced myself witnessing his driving miniature locos, and no doubt he analyses these things in the same way I do. Cheers, Julian You and me both Julian------It never ceases to surprise me that a person spends a great deal of their time, money and effort in making an accurate physical reproduction in miniature then sets off around the club track in glorious isolation, at breakneck speed, in full gear all the time, with the handpump lever sticking up into the sky ( a particular favourite of yours Julian !!), does only one lap and says}--- "I can drive a steam engine" ....... One chap I know drives in the same way as he does his car ie}---the regulator is constantly being open and shut whilst the reverser is left in full gear ... Out of interest how many "Drivers" out there can actually drive on the reverser ??------- and know why this method is preferred ?? Julian--- will we see you up here next year ??--------Pete Dawson and I (Plus a few others ) have moved on from Kinver now..... Roger--- your last post just beat mine...I think there is a blowdown valve on 1501 at the lower part of the boiler outer backhead ( Doorplate to some folk ) and is accessible via a removable steel plate within the footplate and can be found just in front of the firehole doors.......but I'm not too sure of that.... It would be interesting to know how many locomotives can actually be notched up, my guess is less than half. Poor design, poor construction and general wear and tear all conspire to reduce the likelihood of this being possible. I've probably driven eight different locomotives of various designs, and only one could be notched back. The ones that couldn't be notched back just went 'lumpy' and lost power with no appreciable benefit. The one that could, just took off and felt like it had another set of legs as it was notched back. It's a lot more fun when the locomotive runs like that, it gives you more to experiment with and learn about. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 8:30:59 GMT
I recall reading somewhere about the use of the reverser being preferred to the regulator due to design changes.. early loco's (19th and early 20th century, in general, using the regulator and later more modern (perhaps after 1920's) using mostly the reverser. Alas, I can't remember what changed this, I do recall it was to do with better design/technology.. perhaps slide valve, vs piston valve?... I just can't recall the details. Others with more knowledge (better memory) than I will be able to give a more informed answer. I do know that Gresley pacific's were generally driven on the reverser with wide open regulator used for the entire journey bar stop/start. Again, in one of my books, there are some charts giving details of regulator vs cut off used throughout an entire journey along the East Coast mainline and for comparison the same journey using the regulator. I recall some comment about driving on the regulator is more 'old school' and that, modern locomotives (we are talking 20's-30's onwards) being driven mainly on the reverser.
I still have very little driving time being too busy on 4472's build to play trains with 4470, I have, however, driven 4470 on the reverser and she drives very well and can be notched right back easily.
Pete
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,990
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Post by JonL on Dec 3, 2018 9:47:47 GMT
I have a low opinion of the general standard of miniature locomotive driving and firing and the general lack of competency, and lack of attention to detail. <iframe width="22.960000000000036" height="7.079999999999984" style="position: absolute; width: 22.960000000000036px; height: 7.079999999999984px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_39468002" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="22.960000000000036" height="7.079999999999984" style="position: absolute; width: 22.96px; height: 7.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1089px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88486246" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="22.960000000000036" height="7.079999999999984" style="position: absolute; width: 22.96px; height: 7.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77478423" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="22.960000000000036" height="7.079999999999984" style="position: absolute; width: 22.96px; height: 7.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1089px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3330419" scrolling="no"></iframe> But where does someone like me, who has never run a locomotive, find out such things other than poring over books? I've watched a few people running locomotives as closely as I dare, and asked as many pertinent questions as I feel I can without getting annoying, but sometimes there is no match for experience. With a boiler there isn't much room for trial and error, and I have no urge to drive anyone elses locomotive (I just couldn't bear the risk), so for me my main learning experience will be with mine when its finished. As a result I will not achieve competency until I've got used to the foibles and techniques. We are not born competent, but I hope we are born inquisitive. |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 3, 2018 11:20:04 GMT
Hello Nobby------- if at all possible join a club as there's no substitute for friendly, personal interaction --- and a cup of tea !!
I'm sure our Roger ( aka}--- striplar ) won't mind having a chat via a PM to give you his experiences... When he first arrived here he was in a similar situation but seems to be getting on quite well with the driving etc...
The key is to be flexible in your overall approach..For example }-- Don't think that a given position on the club track will generate the same control settings, water level, regulator and reverser settings each time around.....Remember also that we are both Driver & Fireman at the same time so that alone requires extra vigilance...
A good book for all-round explanation of steam loco technology and performance is known as}--"The Black Book"...but the proper title is}---- "Handbook for Railway Steam locomotive Enginemen" written by}--- The British Transport Commission... It was first published in 1957 and therefore does not have an ISBN Number...
There are re-prints available ... Currently there are 27 available on E-Bay
Actually--- the bigger the boiler the slower it takes to react.....Compare a Tich boiler's performance with that of a 5"gauge 9F / Brit. for example
Don't despair ----------------------- you'll get there !!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 11:31:25 GMT
A good book for all-round explanation of steam loco technology and performance is known as}--"The Black Book"...but the proper title is}---- "Handbook for Railway Steam locomotive Enginemen" written by}--- The British Transport Commission... It was first published in 1957 and therefore does not have an ISBN Number... There are re-prints available ... Currently there are 27 available on E-Bay Don't despair ----------------------- you'll get there !! Hi Nobby To add to Alan's excellent recommendation, I have this book along with a number of the pocketbook versions and can say that you'll find them of great interest. There are a number of free online sites with this book as well as those available from specialist book shops or eBay, I have one saved to my cloud which I often refer too when sitting at the PC rather than digging out the book. here's a link for one such site archive.org/details/HandbookForRailwaySteamLocomotiveEnginemen/page/n35Regards Pete |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 3, 2018 18:59:41 GMT
Hi Pete--- I'm a computer neanderthal alas....I've heard the phrase but just what IS the Cloud ??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 19:06:30 GMT
It's a storage facility... I don't really understand it myself, my son set it up for me, I have all my PC files backed up automatically on it.. btw, on the link I shared, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page there are some other very interesting railway books, well worth a read..
Pete
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Post by delaplume on Dec 3, 2018 20:13:02 GMT
It's a storage facility... I don't really understand it myself, my son set it up for me, I have all my PC files backed up automatically on it.. btw, on the link I shared, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page there are some other very interesting railway books, well worth a read.. Pete Thanks ---- will do Alan |
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Post by Rob on Dec 3, 2018 21:01:45 GMT
Hi Pete--- I'm a computer neanderthal alas....I've heard the phrase but just what IS the Cloud ?? It's marketing speak for 'someone else's computer'.  |
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Dec 3, 2018 21:16:09 GMT
Just to go back to the full regulator bit, something a lot of people miss that the higher the steam pressure the hotter the steam is. As our "steam engines are heat engines this is a good thing
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