jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,918
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 8, 2018 0:54:05 GMT
I don't think that Bill Perret's cab interior colour is at all correct. There is substantial evidence that post 1948 the cab insides were painted same as outside ie GWR green, and the backhead was painted black. Exactly as had been done for some considerable time pre 1948.
Bill was a most expert driver. He might also have nudged the loco with his arm as Phil Hains did and got disqualified with his LBSCR E1 in IMLEC.
'Nudging' means by arm application you extend the reading on the dynamometer thereby creating a false reading, essentially by pushing the loco ahead of the drawbar reading.
Cheers,
Julian
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 8, 2018 2:41:04 GMT
Hi Gary and Alan, [Snip 136x] The problem I have with Gary's theory about the 15XX class is twofold; firstly Hawksworth did not retire till the end of 1949, and secondly some 190 94XX class locos were built after Nationalisation after the first ten had been built the year before Nationalisation (1948). 170 of these locos were ordered before Nationalisation but were were not built till after Nationalisation by outside contractors. If the piston valve 15XX parts were part of some greater plan by Hawksworth, then why build 200 94XX locos of 0-6-0 PT using a chassis dating back to the 1880s with inside cylinders and slide valves, and a rather old fashioned non Churchward/Pearce design of top suspended loco link?! There is actually a lot of evidence that the GWR used the money paid by the Labour Government to buy out the shareholders on Nationalisation to order new locos that were then supplied after Nationalisation. Whilst one might question the spending spree on 190 94XX class locos, the fact that the GWR Board did not pass on the money to shareholders as a dividend I consider quite commendable (note there may have been something in the 1947 Act that prevented this anyway, and of course the GWR was post WW2 the only company of 'the big four' that paid a dividend to shareholders in any event!) Cheers, Julian Hi Julian Yes, interesting points, all of them. I'd better make clear that I've never considered other pannier tanks as a likely destination for 15xx-derived parts. It is a moot point as to why Hawksworth built so many 94xx once the deficiencies in the prototypes became evident, and I have no answer. The story about Milne's intervention over 'locos with a steam dome' is well documented, but one can't help feeling that there would have been better ways to satisfy this objection. It didn't stop Hawksworth building the 16xx (complete with dome) in 1949. As several others have pointed out, there is little scope for outside cylinders in an 0-6-0, and in fact the 15xx is about the only format in which it could be achieved with a standard Swindon boiler and outside Walschaerts gear, which seem to have been key requirements. When they proved to be less than a howling success, I guess the 94xx was the nearest and least worst alternative, and 'saving face' by pressing on with the taper boiler may have been a factor. So I have always supposed that Hawksworth's eventual target for 15xx parts were small/medium engines (tender or tank) with front carrying wheels- in line with the Churchwardian view*. It begs the question why did they never materialise? Hawksworth retired in his 65th year unlike his immediate predecessor; to what extent this was his plan, or forced on him by nationalisation I can't judge. (It was 10 months after his 65th birthday, which hints at the latter.) Remember the 15xx was conceived long before nationalisation was in prospect; perhaps he thought he had more time for such projects than actually turned out to be the case. Churchward projected some designs using his standard parts that did not materialise till after his retirement, so the 'long view' was something of a Swindon tradition. Furthermore, replacement of the classes I've suggested must have been a very low priority, as they had plenty of life left in them; nor were either of them displaced much by the advent of the small BR Standards as far as I know. I remain unpersuaded by the 'Nationalisation spending spree' line of thought, at least in respect of the 15xx. The dates just don't work for me. And if, against the odds, they were influenced by any such spree, surely they would have built more than 10; after all they could hardly have built less! Best regards Gary *Collett wrestled with this for auto-train use as KJ Cook relates, but eventually had to discard the idea and fall back on the 54xx/64xx and 48xx, all with inside cylinders and no front carrying wheels. |
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2018 19:27:30 GMT
Time to fill in the side tank support holes that were on the SPEEDY plans. You can see the new ones on the left which is where the bracket should actually be. These were already tapped M3, so I cut off some Mild Steel bolts about 1.5mm longer than the thickness of the frame and carefully used a Ball Pein hammer to rivet them over on both sides. I put a small chamfer on the holes to give the material something to engage with.  20181208_111433 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Those were then machined within 0.1mm of the surface on the mill, I hate filing any more than is absolutely necessary.  20181208_125438 by Roger Froud, on Flickr That left them looking like this...  20181208_130712 by Roger Froud, on Flickr ... which quickly cleaned up with a needle file to this. It all looks a mess because the paint stripper only took off the outer layers, leaving the grey primer well and truly bonded on.  20181208_134728 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Somehow I managed to forget to add the clearance hole for the oil feed into the back of the cylinder...  20181208_165141 by Roger Froud, on Flickr ... so that's been put right. I've made the hole large enough to withdraw the cylinder without having to unscrew the fitting. You can also see the two 4mm dowel holes just above the nearest row of 5 fixing holes.  20181208_165215 by Roger Froud, on Flickr |
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2018 22:17:52 GMT
I tried this paint stripper instead of Nitro-Mors because the new formulation of that doesn't seem to work as well as the old one. I understand that the solvent used in the old formula was banned.  20181208_220607 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Anyway, with a fair bit of stippling and scrubbing with the paint stripper and a clean up with emery cloth, here's the result.  20181208_205930 by Roger Froud, on Flickr The buffers were given the same treatment. I wasn't happy with the way the paint was around the rivets and it had also suffered through handling. It seemed sensible to make a better job of it while that's still easy. I've been very impressed by the adhesion of the ISOPON ZINC 182 Anti-rust grey primer. I'd certainly use that again on less important projects.  20181208_220430 by Roger Froud, on Flickr |
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Post by simplyloco on Dec 8, 2018 22:50:36 GMT
Hi Roger. The last two purchases of paint stripper were a waste of time: they just bounced off the paint! I keep my shot blast cabinet at the Club these days, and I will be using it tomorrow...
John
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2018 22:59:45 GMT
Hi Roger. The last two purchases of paint stripper were a waste of time: they just bounced off the paint! I keep my shot blast cabinet at the Club these days, and I will be using it tomorrow... John Hi John, I'm tempted to buy one, but I'm a bit strapped for somewhere to keep and use it. I can access one, but it's not the same as having it to hand whenever you need it. |
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Post by simplyloco on Dec 8, 2018 23:05:52 GMT
Mine needs more CFM than my compressor can provide, so the club location with its huge compressor is ideal!
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Dec 8, 2018 23:25:10 GMT
Once you have used a grit blast system you can never not have one!!
Saving up for a bigger compressor!
A small cabinet with extensions when needed!
David.
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Post by Roger on Dec 9, 2018 6:17:30 GMT
I've got a decent sized Hydrovane compressor, so that ought to be man enough. Normally I run that at less than half speed on a VFD, but I can adjust that to give maximum output if that's necessary.
Sadly I just can't think of a satisfactory place for one to live at the moment at home.
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Post by chris vine on Dec 9, 2018 8:24:25 GMT
Hi Roger,
If you do buy a blast cabinet, all the cheap ones seem to come with rubbish guns. They seem to wear out in a few minutes, but maybe last better if you use their special glass beads at huge cost.
A proper gun with tungsten carbide nozzle isn't that expensive and will last forever...
Chris.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 9:04:22 GMT
While on the subject of grit/bead blasting, I recently had some items cleaned using soda blasting and found it was a lot more 'gentle' on the items being cleaned.
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Post by 92220 on Dec 9, 2018 9:05:29 GMT
I don't think that Bill Perret's cab interior colour is at all correct. There is substantial evidence that post 1948 the cab insides were painted same as outside ie GWR green, and the backhead was painted black. Exactly as had been done for some considerable time pre 1948. Bill was a most expert driver. He might also have nudged the loco with his arm as Phil Hains did and got disqualified with his LBSCR E1 in IMLEC. 'Nudging' means by arm application you extend the reading on the dynamometer thereby creating a false reading, essentially by pushing the loco ahead of the drawbar reading. Cheers, Julian Julian is right. Cab interiors were the same colour as the outside, and Black backheads, in GWR and BR days.
Bob.
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Post by 92220 on Dec 9, 2018 9:33:13 GMT
Hi Roger.
I've just read your post about using the paint stripper. I am a bit concerned that you may have caused yourself more headaches for the future. I don't want to give you cause for concern, but I would normally recommend that paint stripper is never used on a riveted assembly because it can leach into the joint by capillary action, and then come out again when the new paint is applied. This will spoil the coating around the joint. It doesn't always happen but it does more often than not.
I would always recommend bead blasting, or fine grit blasting if bead blasting is not available. The same problem arises when solvents are used to clean and de-grease an assembly before painting. That should always be done with a clean piece of cotton rag, like an old piece of bedsheet, just dampened with solvent, and never washed with solvent. It goes into the joint by capillary action and comes out again the same way, when painted. After degreasing with solvent it is a good idea to store the assembly, in a very warm place, for a couple of days, to drive off the solvents that may have got trapped in the joint.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Dec 9, 2018 9:54:36 GMT
Hi Roger. I've just read your post about using the paint stripper. I am a bit concerned that you may have caused yourself more headaches for the future. I don't want to give you cause for concern, but I would normally recommend that paint stripper is never used on a riveted assembly because it can leach into the joint by capillary action, and then come out again when the new paint is applied. This will spoil the coating around the joint. It doesn't always happen but it does more often than not. I would always recommend bead blasting, or fine grit blasting if bead blasting is not available. The same problem arises when solvents are used to clean and de-grease an assembly before painting. That should always be done with a clean piece of cotton rag, like an old piece of bedsheet, just dampened with solvent, and never washed with solvent. It goes into the joint by capillary action and comes out again the same way, when painted. After degreasing with solvent it is a good idea to store the assembly, in a very warm place, for a couple of days, to drive off the solvents that may have got trapped in the joint. Bob. Hi Bob, Oh well, it's done now, so perhaps I should bake the parts to really neutralise any absorbed fluids. |
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Post by Roger on Dec 9, 2018 11:37:25 GMT
A quick question about painting assemblies and items with lots of holes...
I'm fast approaching the permanent assembly of the frames, which will be permanently bolted to the buffers with countersunk screws which will be filled and painted over. The inside of the frames need to be partly red and partly black.
At the moment, I'm picturing spraying all of the components with 2-pack primer and letting that fully cure. The questions I have are as follows...
1) Should I try to somehow fill and protect the dozens of holes to stop paint getting into them, or is it best to just spray it and then run a drill/tap through the holes after priming?
2) Should I prime all of the parts separately to get primer between the mating joints?
3) Should I mask and paint the Red inside part before assembling the frame to the buffers?
4) Should I bolt the primed parts together and then spray it all black? My worry is that I might end up with too much paint in the joint if I fully paint it
5) How much of the whole assembly should I attempt to spray in one session?
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 721
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Post by oldnorton on Dec 9, 2018 11:38:49 GMT
If anybody wants 'proper' paint stripper then it is still available on eBay in 5l containers. It's certainly not banned, but the advert says 'strictly trade sales only' and similar warnings. The Buy Now button still works though!
The 'proper' stuff contains dichloromethane and caustic in a jelly mix. Vinyl gloves and goggles are essential and it is best used outdoors or in a fume cupboard. Dichloromethane has a very distinctive 'cold solvent' aroma and it will get through the vinyl gloves to make your hands feel strangely cold. Yes it is toxic if absorbed in a large amount.
Roger, Bob's warning is right but I have done the same as you and a few hours in an oven at 250 deg will drive off all the water and solvent. The caustic will absorb CO2 and turn into carbonate which is fairly inert. I remember Chris Vine's similar warning a while ago about solvent washing old oily riveted assemblies.
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milky
Seasoned Member
Posts: 120
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Post by milky on Dec 9, 2018 12:39:07 GMT
Roger, just take over some of the house  Your shop is lovely and cosy, with all the space used up ! |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 9, 2018 13:36:34 GMT
A quick question about painting assemblies and items with lots of holes... I'm fast approaching the permanent assembly of the frames, which will be permanently bolted to the buffers with countersunk screws which will be filled and painted over. The inside of the frames need to be partly red and partly black. At the moment, I'm picturing spraying all of the components with 2-pack primer and letting that fully cure. The questions I have are as follows... 1) Should I try to somehow fill and protect the dozens of holes to stop paint getting into them, or is it best to just spray it and then run a drill/tap through the holes after priming? 2) Should I prime all of the parts separately to get primer between the mating joints? 3) Should I mask and paint the Red inside part before assembling the frame to the buffers? 4) Should I bolt the primed parts together and then spray it all black? My worry is that I might end up with too much paint in the joint if I fully paint it 5) How much of the whole assembly should I attempt to spray in one session? Hi Roger, 1) I use short lengths of all-thread...NOT a hex-head etc as this can deflect the spray locally..... 2) I use 1 pass of undercoat on all items before assembly then apply the top coat / coats. 3) Depends on assembled frame size.....For an 0 gauge / 2.5" gauge then yes....For a 5" 0-6-0 there's enough accessibility ( your Speedy and my Simplex are approx the same )..... You could always knock-up a rough wooden replica and try-out your technique using some cheap tinned spray ?? 4) All-over Black, and then the Red items do you mean??------ I have done a Rob Roy frame this way using quite a lot of masking tape in the process but it came out OK in the end....... 5) Ideally all of it using some form of handling device---- depends how you've answered your 4) My Classic Motorcycling friend does all his own parts spraying and he built a booth out of 3 x 2 timber covered in clear polythene......It was partially pressurised by an old vac. cleaner..........The whole thing fitted inside his double garage...The mainframe / forks / swing arm were professionally stove enameled.. I hope that's ok ?? See you in the Summer ?? Alan |
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Post by Roger on Dec 9, 2018 13:39:33 GMT
A quick question about painting assemblies and items with lots of holes... I'm fast approaching the permanent assembly of the frames, which will be permanently bolted to the buffers with countersunk screws which will be filled and painted over. The inside of the frames need to be partly red and partly black. At the moment, I'm picturing spraying all of the components with 2-pack primer and letting that fully cure. The questions I have are as follows... 1) Should I try to somehow fill and protect the dozens of holes to stop paint getting into them, or is it best to just spray it and then run a drill/tap through the holes after priming? 2) Should I prime all of the parts separately to get primer between the mating joints? 3) Should I mask and paint the Red inside part before assembling the frame to the buffers? 4) Should I bolt the primed parts together and then spray it all black? My worry is that I might end up with too much paint in the joint if I fully paint it 5) How much of the whole assembly should I attempt to spray in one session? Hi Roger, 1) I use short lengths of all-thread...NOT a hex-head etc as this can deflect the spray locally..... 2) I use 1 pass of undercoat on all items before assembly then apply the top coat / coats. 3) Depends on assembled frame size.....For an 0 gauge / 2.5" gauge then yes....For a 5" 0-6-0 there's enough accessibility ( your Speedy and my Simplex are approx the same )..... You could always knock-up a rough wooden replica and try-out your technique using some cheap tinned spray ?? 4) All-over Black, and then the Red items do you mean??------ I have done a Rob Roy frame this way using quite a lot of masking tape in the process but it came out OK in the end....... 5) Ideally all of it using some form of handling device---- depends how you've answered your 4) My Classic Motorcycling friend does all his own parts spraying and he built a booth out of 3 x 2 timber covered in clear polythene......It was partially pressurised by an old vac. cleaner..........The whole thing fitted inside his double garage...The mainframe / forks / swing arm were professionally stove enameled.. I hope that's ok ?? See you in the Summer ?? Alan Thanks Alan, duly noted. I'm thinking of getting some Polythene sheet and making a booth in my garden office. Hopefully I'll get round to a visit this year, it's long overdue! |
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Dec 9, 2018 16:11:22 GMT
Hi
I would suggest assembling the frames and putting the cylinders on before painting so that all the mateing faces are metal to metal rather than a metal, paint, paint, metal sandwich.
There is a valid argument that the paint can fret and allow things to become loose.Certainly on larger or highly highly stressed items in general engineering care is often taken not to have paint or other contaminants on mating surfaces.
Regards
Paul
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Your shop is lovely and cosy, with all the space used up !
