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Post by Roger on Nov 1, 2019 22:56:40 GMT
Hi Alan, I hear what you're saying about filler, but I have an intense disliking of it because it's not the same hardness as the base metal and that makes it tricky to get it to be perfectly finished. I very much prefer the metal to be right then the rest is easier. So this is the new one, albeit with a few gouges that are a bit annoying. I think these are from the roughing passes, I'm not sure if they are from the first or second of those. Anyway, I've increased the stock I've left for the next one to avoid that if possible. They have a sharp corner to them, that's how I know it's not from this pass which is using a ball nosed cutter. 20191101_085115 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Here's a wobbly video to give some sense of how fast this finishing pass is running. 20191101_090957 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191101_115839 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr The horizontal finishing pass on the inside was rather surprising in that it cut that vertical side in the very first pass, not from the top. I'll have to see why it did that because it's not the right way to do it. fortunately I was going slowly so it wasn't a huge problem. 20191101_132529 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr It's so thin as this stage that it rings like a bell, so the cuts were only 0.1mm and very slowly at the end or it would have ended in tears. The blue tac support seemed to help quite a lot with that. 20191101_200504 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191101_200923 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr The gouges seemed to file out ok, so it was worth continuing. 20191101_205943 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I'm going to have to drill or machine the hole in the top on the corner of the shoulder, and it's very fragile to hole in the vice. So here's a fixture which can be used on both sides. The cross hole is for a cable tie, and the triangle shape on the other is to stop a cable tie from slipping up. 20191101_111410 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191101_210845 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr There's a fair bit of material to file off, so holding this firmly was a big help. 20191101_211320 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr The bottom edge of the shoulder is nice and thin and that really helps with this sitting down well. There's still a bit more work to do to get the fit better, but it's a good start. 20191101_215120 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191101_215136 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I've now mirrored the programs and and currently roughing out the second one.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Nov 2, 2019 0:00:18 GMT
After almost a month sorting out a 2 bed flat in Plymouth forgoing a TV and a Computer I come back to SHEAR BEAUTY. And they get PAINTED BLACK? Roger this is superb! Just in a quiet moment machine another of each to be lovingly polished for a coverted shelf of your finest parts.
Now off to catch up on House reconstruction having hogged the workshop for the Summer months!! Not to mention all the Steamy weekends away at various tracks!
David and Lily.
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Post by delaplume on Nov 2, 2019 1:19:24 GMT
I rather like the juxtaposition of the modern, high-tech. product being held in a Victorian-looking bench vice.. LoL !!..........
It's that join line between the bonnet and the shoulder that does it for me...sheer machining elegance....
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Post by Roger on Nov 2, 2019 10:39:18 GMT
Here's my interpretation of the way the clack covers look. If I'd thought about this when I made the safety valve and top feed years ago, I'd have got the centres of these the same as where the holes are on the shoulders! However, they're further inboard than they should be, so these are just going to be dummies. Had I thought about this more recently, I'd have realised that locations for these could have been machined into the shoulders, so that's two missed opportunities! Oh well, such is life... So I've created a 3D machined washer that fits snugly under the hole in the shoulder to support the dummy nut I've made the shoulder slightly transparent and coloured that red so you can see where that goes. I'll probably just soft solder that in place. I've guessed the dimensions of the fitting based on the hole size in the shoulder cover which I know is 2-1/2" in diameter. Clack cover by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by Roger on Nov 2, 2019 15:58:12 GMT
This is something I've been meaning to do for some time. I've added a retainer under the ashpan where it goes over the rear axle which forms a sandwich with 3mm insulation in the gap. The bottom of the ashpan here is going to get a good roasting from the bottom of the grate and I want to stop the rear axle from getting excessively hot. I can't make it any further down because the ashpan tray would foul it and stop air from getting in. Insulated ashpan assembly by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by David on Nov 2, 2019 21:33:26 GMT
The pipe cover and bonnet are brilliant! You're showing some value in that printer too making all those parts to hold on with.
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Post by Roger on Nov 2, 2019 22:04:36 GMT
The pipe cover and bonnet are brilliant! You're showing some value in that printer too making all those parts to hold on with. Glad you like them David. Yes, the printer is proving to be much more useful than expected both for prototyping and for fixtures. In particular, the fixtures have been a real surprise. It's a lot more accurate than I expected and the quality of the prints are better than I thought they would be. They're surprisingly strong, especially if you increase the number of perimeters, that makes a huge difference. Changing the percentage infill makes much less impact than you might think.
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Post by mugbuilder on Nov 2, 2019 22:45:50 GMT
Absolutely b*##*y marvelous. Barry
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Post by Roger on Nov 2, 2019 22:57:05 GMT
The Pannier Tanks on 1501 have a thin strip of metal to tidy up the joint between them and the boiler cladding. Here you can see that it's actually made from two pieces welded together at the throatplate area. There's a vertical fold on the side of the firebox that you can't see from this photo. IMG_1413 by Roger Froud, on Flickr So I've had three attempts to make a paper template that's a reasonably close approximation to how it looks with the various cutouts to miss the fittings. These are held down with bolts through the tank which isn't ideal really, they're also about M1 size too. I'll probably make them from Brass since they're certain to get wet from spillages when filling the tanks. I've got some 0.6mm thick sheet which is probably way over scale, but I suppose I could taper the edges to make it look thinner. It's going to be pretty fragile and fiddly to make without putting a lot of marks in it. 20191102_224311 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by ettingtonliam on Nov 3, 2019 8:53:51 GMT
Looking at that last photo of 1501 makes me wonder if the safety valve bonnet its got came off something else. It doesn't sit down properly on the boiler because the clack valve covers foul the delivery pipes from the tank, and all your photos of it show what seems to be a join line just above the clack valve covers. It could be an optical illusion, but photos of Castles, Kings and 'Bear' seem to suggest that they had a more squat bonnet, presumably for height clearance issues.Might it be off a larger boilered tender engine, when the feed pipes would hug the boiler more closely, and been extended upwards to suit the smaller boilered 1500 class?
Maybe Alan could confirm the dimensions of 'Bear' bonnet?
An examination of the assembly inside and out would be interesting.
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Post by Roger on Nov 3, 2019 9:17:05 GMT
Looking at that last photo of 1501 makes me wonder if the safety valve bonnet its got came off something else. It doesn't sit down properly on the boiler because the clack valve covers foul the delivery pipes from the tank, and all your photos of it show what seems to be a join line just above the clack valve covers. It could be an optical illusion, but photos of Castles, Kings and 'Bear' seem to suggest that they had a more squat bonnet, presumably for height clearance issues.Might it be off a larger boilered tender engine, when the feed pipes would hug the boiler more closely, and been extended upwards to suit the smaller boilered 1500 class? Maybe Alan could confirm the dimensions of 'Bear' bonnet? An examination of the assembly inside and out would be interesting. That's an interesting idea, it's entirely possible that it came off another locomotive since the original appears to have been black. I don't imagine they would have stripped off the paint. All of these bonnets appear to be made to the same drawing with the various difference marked for each type. I quess it could have come from a locomotive which didn't have a number 10 boiler, but I'd have to look at the table to see if that would even have fitted.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Nov 3, 2019 12:12:01 GMT
I've got a B&W photo of 1504, in what appears to be 'ex works' BR black livery, which suggests that the bonnets were brass, because theres a contrast on the photo between the clack covers, which certainly would have been black, and the bonnet which is a lighter colour.
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Post by Roger on Nov 3, 2019 12:43:41 GMT
I've got a B&W photo of 1504, in what appears to be 'ex works' BR black livery, which suggests that the bonnets were brass, because theres a contrast on the photo between the clack covers, which certainly would have been black, and the bonnet which is a lighter colour. That's interesting, because I've got quite a few B&W photos where I'd say there's no discernable difference in colour or how reflective the surface is on most of them. You'd be hard pressed to convince a jury based on those. However, I think that may just be due to lack of care making the Brass really dull. They certainly didn't pamper them! The one really clear colour photo of 1509 I found working at Keresley colliery is being used with the bonnet missing altogether. Sod's law! This is the only colour photograph I have found that clearly shows that 1502 had a Brass one when it was scrapped. It's not clear if the one behind it has a Brass one or not, it's so tarnished if it has that it's not possible to be sure. So I'm inclined to thing you're right and that they left the factory with Brass ones. Thinking logically, why would you paint them anyway? They're not going to rust. The only reason would be to reduce maintenance. Looking at all of my hundreds of colour photos, it's surprising how it looks black in many of them until you look really closely. I think it's because there's a sea of black parts all around, so even if it's shiny and reflective, you tend to the the reflection of black parts of the locomotive anyway. 69875004_2518757761517234_4290412874024615936_n by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Does anyone know if the GWR ever painted them on any other locomotive? It's a bit of a centre piece for the GWR, so you'd think they would want to show it off. 15xx is quite a departure for the GWR though, it's a wonder they were built at all with Diesels already making an appearance. Anyway, it's shiny Brass now, so I'll make it like that anyway. It would look a lot nicer than black in my opinion.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Nov 3, 2019 13:30:35 GMT
Its difficult to tell, much depends on the degree of cleanliness of the loco at the the time. I'm going from the photos in Holcroft's 'An outline of GW Locomotive practice 1837 -1947', all undated unfortunately. There is a photos of 4001 'Dog Star' in quite clean condition, with polished brass beading on the splashers, but the bonnet is quite dark, possibly painted. Theres also one of 8106, a 2-6-2T, again with clean paint, but a dark coloured bonnet, apparently matching the clack covers so possibly painted. I wouldn't be surprised if they were painted during WW1 and WW2, to reduce maintenance.
Anyway, with the absolute jewel of a bonnet you have made, it would be a crying shame not to have it in polished brass. Let any decryers prove otherwise. I'm sure you've said this somewhere before, but are you basing your model on 1501 as built, or 1501 as now exists?
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 210
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Post by baldric on Nov 3, 2019 13:44:00 GMT
I believe a lot non-top link engines had their bonnets painted, however some sheds cleaned the paint off, I am not sure if this only happened from WW2.
There does exist the specification (but not drawings) for the 94xx Pannier to be built by external contractors, I am sure that details the paint finish, but I do not have that to hand.
Baldric.
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Post by Roger on Nov 3, 2019 13:58:26 GMT
Its difficult to tell, much depends on the degree of cleanliness of the loco at the the time. I'm going from the photos in Holcroft's 'An outline of GW Locomotive practice 1837 -1947', all undated unfortunately. There is a photos of 4001 'Dog Star' in quite clean condition, with polished brass beading on the splashers, but the bonnet is quite dark, possibly painted. Theres also one of 8106, a 2-6-2T, again with clean paint, but a dark coloured bonnet, apparently matching the clack covers so possibly painted. I wouldn't be surprised if they were painted during WW1 and WW2, to reduce maintenance. Anyway, with the absolute jewel of a bonnet you have made, it would be a crying shame not to have it in polished brass. Let any decryers prove otherwise. I'm sure you've said this somewhere before, but are you basing your model on 1501 as built, or 1501 as now exists? Interesting. I'm not really modelling it strictly to any snapshot in time since it's not super scale anyway. The bunker as the same number of rivets as the original one in part of it, and the same number of rivets on the new bunker in another. They just put in as many as they thought were needed, and that makes perfect sence. So mine's a hybrid of the two because the way they fitted to the model suited that best. Agreed, painting it would be a Sin when you can justify keeping it nice an shiny.
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Nov 3, 2019 17:11:01 GMT
m not really modelling it strictly to any snapshot in time since it's not super scale anyway.
Well that maybe true Roger but if you had worked on some 1950's or prewar examples of model engineering you might well take a different view. Whilst there maybe historic inaccuracies the level of detail is right up there.
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 210
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Post by baldric on Nov 3, 2019 18:13:40 GMT
I have just checked, the 94xx specification does say that the safety valve casing should be painted grey undercoat - 2 coats, air drying black enamel - 1 coat, varnish - 2 coats, the document is dated December 1947. Personally if anyone says Roger has finished it incorrectly I would say rubbish, it is his engine to finish as he wishes, and it is likely that it would have been painted at times and not others.
I am very impressed with all of Rogers work, I wish I had a small CNC mill to try some of the things he does, however it has lead me to look at some methods of doing things that I would not have considered.
Baldric.
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Post by delaplume on Nov 3, 2019 19:46:07 GMT
Hello everyone,
Yes, the GW did specify different liveries......It depends on the year you want to model, the designation of the loco ( Express, mixed traffic, Freight)...
A war-time 2-8-0 was all-over Black including the bonnet ( can't have that thing acting as a homing beacon for any prowling Me109's for example )
The green changed from approx 1928 from the earlier dark to a lighter, holly green....As far as I'm aware the shoulders were always painted.. with the bonnet traditionally being polished Brass in the main....
I'm using the late Peter Riche's drawings for the Star / Castle and have used his safety valve dimentions to make the bronze mounting ring that's already fitted to the boiler....
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,913
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 3, 2019 20:46:24 GMT
1. No GWR (and GWR type into BR days) safety valve cover was ever made out of anything other than brass
2. Only Express passenger locos had polished brass safety valve covers from the 1920s onwards. Secondary locos had these painted over at'The Works' from the 1920s onwards. (Swindon wasn't the only 'Works', and Caerphilly had it's own painting 'spec').
3. Lots of sheds removed the paint on the safety valve covers to show the brass underneath. There is substantial photographic evidence of this from the 1920s till the end of steam on the GWR in BR days.
I can't be bothered to give you chapter and verse on this this evening, but I have a copy of the original HMRS stuff on GWR liveries which is actually better than the later book, plus Haresnape's book and quite a lot else plus all of J N Maskelyne's drawings and descriptions including the type of brass used and it's thickness etc, plus of course Jim Russell's books.
From a financial point of view, thousands of secondary GWR locos had their safety valves painted to avoid them not requiring cleaning and polishing, which is labour intensive, and required time which cost money everyday for the cleaners at the sheds. However, as stated, at many sheds the paint was removed and the brass polished. It was all part of the GWR ethic of the staff. I think Gasson covers this very well in his volumes of memoirs. (On the Isle of Wight, even in BR days, there is evidence of drivers coming in on their rest days and days off to clean their cabs and polish the cab pipework).
Cheers, Julian
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