barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 874
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Post by barlowworks on Aug 12, 2020 9:14:52 GMT
You can get a water trap for an airbrush that screws onto the air hose connection on the airbrush, the hose then connects to the bottom of this.I have one connected to the end of my hose with a MAC valve connected to it to control air pressure.
Mike
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Post by Roger on Aug 12, 2020 9:30:57 GMT
Hi Roger. Your description of the 'crater' in the paint coat is an indication of a tiny droplet of water. Does it look like a miniature volcano where the rim is fractionally higher than the surrounding surface? If so, that is an indication of a water droplet. If the 'crater' looks like an eye where the surround has just pulled away from the centre, and it looks like a 'birds eye', that is an indication of a tiny droplet of silicone or other oil. Don't forget that in this hot weather, we all perspire and that can be a problem when spraying, and unfortunately it can cause flaws like either water droplets or oil droplets. These droplets can be just a few microns in size but their effect is out of all proportion. The other point that comes to mind....where is your water trap in the airline, and what size is it? For airbrushing it should be the smallest size produced. It should also be fitted as near the end of the airbrush air feed pipe as possible, (no more than a metre and a half from the airbrush itself) to prevent condensation being formed after air passes through it, due to air flow. Bob. Hi Bob, The crater looks just like a sheet of stretched latex would look like if you pushed a fine rod into the surface. The paint is perfectly flat right up to the point where the crater starts, and then it looks like it dives down almost to the original surface I'm painting. So that doesn't sound like water, but I guess it could be oil. It looks like the paint is being drawn down to the under surface, as if the paint wants to wet the surface everywhere else, but not at the centre of the blemish. Is that the effect that oil droplets have? I suppose it could be a tiny area where I haven't cleaned it sufficiently, but that seems unlikely because there are several of these defects that all look identical. I don't imagine I'd be able to create the same effect twice like that. Both of my filters are right back at the compressor, after the freeze drier. Then there's a long 8mm clear hose that has to be 10 metres long before the regulator in the garden office. Carefully looking along the clear pipe, I can't see any evidence of water or oil, but that's not to say there isn't some that's too small to see. Anyway, I've just ordered a new regulator which has a 5 micron filter that I'll fit instead of just the regulator in the office. It says it's for spraying, and most of the other filters seem to only filter to 10-40 microns. I can arrange for that to hook onto the desk so it's close to the guns. Hopefully that will help.
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Post by David on Aug 12, 2020 10:07:46 GMT
I noticed the same thing when I kept having to take the paint off the cylinder covers (and I have to do it again because I managed to dent and scratch one). The black paint sloughs off in sheets.
It's interesting watching the trials and tribulations and how you can't stop yourself going the extra mile.
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Post by Roger on Aug 12, 2020 10:35:38 GMT
I noticed the same thing when I kept having to take the paint off the cylinder covers (and I have to do it again because I managed to dent and scratch one). The black paint sloughs off in sheets. It's interesting watching the trials and tribulations and how you can't stop yourself going the extra mile. Hi David, The way that paint comes off is certainly odd, and not at all what I expected. It doesn't even seem to dissolve after it's come off, it stays as broken sheets. Maybe the Universal Thinners is very different to the thinners used for the paint itself. It would be interesting to see what happens if you use those to remove the paint. I'm not hugely patient or interested in painting. To be honest, it's more of a chore. However, if I can make life easier for myself by changing things then I will. It would drive me nuts to do it regularly, since everything has to be just right to get even a tolerably good result. Heaven knows how hard it must be to get it right almost every time! Hopefully if I go far enough, even I will be able to get an acceptable finish. It doesn't have to be Exhibition standard, but it can't be offensive either.
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Post by jon38r80 on Aug 12, 2020 11:12:28 GMT
+1 for oil droplet. Annoying , could be perspiration but I had that problem with a new gun before I took it completely apart and washed it all in acetone. I’m not even sure that was the problem either. It just reinforces the need to clean everything twice and then clean it again just before you paint it. It’s even more annoying when you have what is otherwise a brilliant finish.
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Post by 92220 on Aug 12, 2020 12:16:18 GMT
Hi Roger. Your description of the 'crater' in the paint coat is an indication of a tiny droplet of water. Does it look like a miniature volcano where the rim is fractionally higher than the surrounding surface? If so, that is an indication of a water droplet. If the 'crater' looks like an eye where the surround has just pulled away from the centre, and it looks like a 'birds eye', that is an indication of a tiny droplet of silicone or other oil. Don't forget that in this hot weather, we all perspire and that can be a problem when spraying, and unfortunately it can cause flaws like either water droplets or oil droplets. These droplets can be just a few microns in size but their effect is out of all proportion. The other point that comes to mind....where is your water trap in the airline, and what size is it? For airbrushing it should be the smallest size produced. It should also be fitted as near the end of the airbrush air feed pipe as possible, (no more than a metre and a half from the airbrush itself) to prevent condensation being formed after air passes through it, due to air flow. Bob. Hi Bob, The crater looks just like a sheet of stretched latex would look like if you pushed a fine rod into the surface. The paint is perfectly flat right up to the point where the crater starts, and then it looks like it dives down almost to the original surface I'm painting. So that doesn't sound like water, but I guess it could be oil. It looks like the paint is being drawn down to the under surface, as if the paint wants to wet the surface everywhere else, but not at the centre of the blemish. Is that the effect that oil droplets have? I suppose it could be a tiny area where I haven't cleaned it sufficiently, but that seems unlikely because there are several of these defects that all look identical. I don't imagine I'd be able to create the same effect twice like that. Both of my filters are right back at the compressor, after the freeze drier. Then there's a long 8mm clear hose that has to be 10 metres long before the regulator in the garden office. Carefully looking along the clear pipe, I can't see any evidence of water or oil, but that's not to say there isn't some that's too small to see. Anyway, I've just ordered a new regulator which has a 5 micron filter that I'll fit instead of just the regulator in the office. It says it's for spraying, and most of the other filters seem to only filter to 10-40 microns. I can arrange for that to hook onto the desk so it's close to the guns. Hopefully that will help. Hi Roger. Yes that does sound like a tiny oil contamination. It will look like a birds eye. That is what it is typically called in the painting trade. If you have a 10 metre length of hose between the filter and the airbrush regulator, water droplets will almost certainly start to form. Unless your filter unit is described as a 'water trap/filter', it will only filter out dust particles with a physical particle filter. It does need a means of spinning the airflow inside the casing, to throw water droplets out by centrifugal action. This is why you need the smallest size water trap/filter for airbrushing....to get the speed of spinning the air. You indicate you have a 'freeze drier'. I've never used one and have no idea how effective they are, or how they work, but the smallest size water-trap/filter will remove oil as well as water, to take water droplets from the air flow. I am not sure that a freeze drier would work for oil in the air either. That may be your problem with that little blemish in the paint coating. Bob.
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Post by chris vine on Aug 12, 2020 16:28:20 GMT
Hi Roger,
Oil and water can be very devils to remove. Bad luck.
If you have an oil free compressor, then it won't be oil. All the suggestions about removing water and oil with traps only goes so far. Also, when I had the same problem, my friend who runs a compressed air supply firm told me that the freezer type water removers are not recommended for spray painting. He supplied me with a double filter set-up. Activated charcoal to remove oil and a desiccant dryer for the water. These finally cracked the problem - at a price! The desiccant cartridge lasts a long time before it is saturated. Picture on page 28 of the book, also with an "Eliminiser" (blue) which is an advanced centrifugal dryer which I used first, but not fully successful. (I don't think the size of the trap matters, as they work from outside to inside, speeding up the rotation as the air spirals inwards.)
If it is oil droplets, you might try running the gun with the paint cup empty and watching the air holes in the ears. I found that I could see a little ring of oil building up round the holes, then suddenly it would be gone. Of course it was detaching and forming droplets. For me, the witness on the job was little dents with brown colour in the middle.
On painting itself, I don't think you should be using more thinners. Although told to do this, I found it a bit of a dead end. You are doing everything right, but perhaps need to apply the paint a bit thicker - maybe you can try a coat and then waiting 1 minute (or 2 or 3) and then another, so you build it up. Sorry not to have "The Answer" but that is not how this game works...
Have "fun"!! Chris.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,906
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Post by JonL on Aug 12, 2020 16:53:51 GMT
I'm off to google how oil free compressors work.
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Post by Roger on Aug 12, 2020 20:35:55 GMT
Hi Roger, Oil and water can be very devils to remove. Bad luck. If you have an oil free compressor, then it won't be oil. All the suggestions about removing water and oil with traps only goes so far. Also, when I had the same problem, my friend who runs a compressed air supply firm told me that the freezer type water removers are not recommended for spray painting. He supplied me with a double filter set-up. Activated charcoal to remove oil and a desiccant dryer for the water. These finally cracked the problem - at a price! The desiccant cartridge lasts a long time before it is saturated. Picture on page 28 of the book, also with an "Eliminiser" (blue) which is an advanced centrifugal dryer which I used first, but not fully successful. (I don't think the size of the trap matters, as they work from outside to inside, speeding up the rotation as the air spirals inwards.) If it is oil droplets, you might try running the gun with the paint cup empty and watching the air holes in the ears. I found that I could see a little ring of oil building up round the holes, then suddenly it would be gone. Of course it was detaching and forming droplets. For me, the witness on the job was little dents with brown colour in the middle. On painting itself, I don't think you should be using more thinners. Although told to do this, I found it a bit of a dead end. You are doing everything right, but perhaps need to apply the paint a bit thicker - maybe you can try a coat and then waiting 1 minute (or 2 or 3) and then another, so you build it up. Sorry not to have "The Answer" but that is not how this game works... Have "fun"!! Chris. Hi Chris, I presume freeze driers aren't recommended because they don't remove the oil? They certainly remove a lot of water. I like the idea of the filter arrangement you describe. I can't see a brown dot in the middle, but maybe that's because the paint is Black. The craters are pretty small, so the oil droplets must be tiny if they are to blame. It's interesting that they all appear to be exactly the same size too. I'm just wondering if I've not quite added enough paint, and that the craters might disappear if I tried that. I'm inclined to persist with the slightly thinner paint, because I've been finding that I get a depressed ring around the rivets when I add enough paint for it to flow out when it's thinned to 25%. The finish around the tiny nuts on the cladding came our really well on the last test with the thinner paint. I've not tried following up with a coat on top of a coat. I imagine it's hard to see where the second coat of paint goes since it's already really shiny? I see the price of the activate charcoal filters is over £200. However, I notice that these granules are pretty cheap. How hard can it be to modify a water trap filter to use these? I'm sure I've got one I could play with... And one more thought. I clean the spray gun with the Universal Thinners that I've been using to get the paint off with great success. I wonder if it's possible that this is responsible for the craters? Maybe I should purge the gun with the same thinners I used for mixing the paint after cleaning it?
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barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 874
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Post by barlowworks on Aug 12, 2020 21:28:56 GMT
With the airbrush I always have a final blow through with cellulose thinners to make sure the last specks of paint are removed.
Mike
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Post by ettingtonliam on Aug 12, 2020 21:37:19 GMT
I have the utmost admiration for Roger and the way he has set about painting 1501, despite inumerable set backs and problems. The expertise and advice from many of you is outstanding. I have read all of the posts here on spray painting, and one thing is now certain:- When I come eventually to paint Locomotion, I'm doing it with a brush!
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Post by chris vine on Aug 12, 2020 23:40:08 GMT
Hi Roger,
I think the desiccant driers just make a more reliable and thorough job. if one thinks of the time wasted with a drop of water on the job, the cost of a cartridge is negligible.
Oil. I had this trouble on the green tender paint. The drops were really tiny, I guess that is because the oil detaches and forms tiny drops like a little mist. One thing I do remember is that they were in a line!
Why don't you borrow my double filter unit? If you put a couple of cartridges in it you would be up and running. I don't think they cost as much as you think - and my friend who runs Duncan Rogers Engineering up in Glasgow will look after you!
The depressed ring around the rivets might be because you are adding too much paint, or because it is already too thin. I had this, particularly in internal corners, a bit like around the edge of a rivet. If there is too much runny paint, the surface tension seems to pull the paint out of the corner. I had two narrow white lines of undercoat showing either side of a sharp corner, with paint in the deepest bit of the corner. I suspect there are conflicting forces going on which would take a phd to analyse!! Car painters never have this problem because there are so few detailed edges with sharp corners on their jobs.
I only cleaned my gun out with gun wash - nothing special. Doesn't mean that there isn't a residue in what you are using. However your compressor is certainly not oil free, so I would suspect that first. When I had my problems I found that the whole airline from compressor to gun had a thin layer of oil on the inside. It must have been creeping along and into the gun. I reckon you can see it with the naked eye while spraying just air and watching the nozzles...
All this is so uncontrolled compared to the lovely CNC kit you are used to using. You need the patience of a saint. The trouble is that, like me, you are not trying to get a fantastic finish - just something which is acceptable to your eye. Once you start looking (as you clearly do), then one only wants a flat surface with no dust in it. Madness follows quickly!!!!
Chris.
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Post by Roger on Aug 13, 2020 8:12:39 GMT
Hi Roger, I think the desiccant driers just make a more reliable and thorough job. if one thinks of the time wasted with a drop of water on the job, the cost of a cartridge is negligible. Oil. I had this trouble on the green tender paint. The drops were really tiny, I guess that is because the oil detaches and forms tiny drops like a little mist. One thing I do remember is that they were in a line! Why don't you borrow my double filter unit? If you put a couple of cartridges in it you would be up and running. I don't think they cost as much as you think - and my friend who runs Duncan Rogers Engineering up in Glasgow will look after you! The depressed ring around the rivets might be because you are adding too much paint, or because it is already too thin. I had this, particularly in internal corners, a bit like around the edge of a rivet. If there is too much runny paint, the surface tension seems to pull the paint out of the corner. I had two narrow white lines of undercoat showing either side of a sharp corner, with paint in the deepest bit of the corner. I suspect there are conflicting forces going on which would take a phd to analyse!! Car painters never have this problem because there are so few detailed edges with sharp corners on their jobs. I only cleaned my gun out with gun wash - nothing special. Doesn't mean that there isn't a residue in what you are using. However your compressor is certainly not oil free, so I would suspect that first. When I had my problems I found that the whole airline from compressor to gun had a thin layer of oil on the inside. It must have been creeping along and into the gun. I reckon you can see it with the naked eye while spraying just air and watching the nozzles... All this is so uncontrolled compared to the lovely CNC kit you are used to using. You need the patience of a saint. The trouble is that, like me, you are not trying to get a fantastic finish - just something which is acceptable to your eye. Once you start looking (as you clearly do), then one only wants a flat surface with no dust in it. Madness follows quickly!!!! Chris. Hi Chris, I can see how a dessicant drier ought to be really effective. I might give Duncan Rogers a shout later on to see if they have something at a reasonable price. It's very kind of you to offer yours, but I'd rather get something I can use in future too. I think it's more likely to be oil that water that's the problem. Freeze driers are very effective, and I've got two coalescing filters after it. However, nothing is perfect, so something could still get through I guess. I'll take it all apart and make sure it's all clean and not sodden with oil! So far I've found that the rings around rivet heads seems to only happen when you have too much paint. I don't think it matters how thin the paint is, you still get the same effect if you overdo it. The trouble with thicker paint seems to be that you have to apply a decent amount else it doesn't join the dots and pull flat. If there's enough to pull flat, it's too much around the rivets. Hence thinning the paint a bit more. Ultimately, the depression can't be deeper than the thickness of the paint you're applying. You certainly do need patience.
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Post by 92220 on Aug 13, 2020 8:16:19 GMT
Hi Roger.
You have a Hydrovane, same as me. They ALWAYS pass oil into the airline and that keeps the vanes lubricated. I have the same problem. That is why I bought a small, quiet, oilfree compressor for spraying. I had forgotten that you have a Hydrovane. Thinking about it, that is almost certainly your problem. Chris is right. The oil forms an extremely fine mist and the droplets are minute, but cause big problems. However, if you only get the odd 'birdseye', it is a spec of oil detaching from somewhere, rather than oil mist, which would ruin the whole paint surface. Solvent used to clean the spraygun won't cause problems like 'birdseyes'. It evaporates and leaves no liquid residue, unless it is very contaminated, which it won't be after fully cleaning the gun. It is most likely, as Chris says, is oil condensing in the pipework, and then detaching as the odd tiny droplet. This is another reason for having a watertrap/filter as near the spraygun as possible; not at the compressor end of the airline. I have my water trap/filter/regulator at the end of the airline, and the airbrush pipe screws straight onto the outlet of the filter. I have never had a problem with birdseyes.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Aug 13, 2020 10:39:42 GMT
I've just had a good rummage around the internet to see what options are available for filtering and came across these which I really like the look of. They are a mini disposable inline desiccant filter that you can attach directly to the gun, although I'd probably put them in the hose up close. They're currently out of stock, but I've put my name down for a pack when they are available again, which they claim will be soon. They change colour when you need to change them. Being a US product, they have 1/4" NPT threads, but I've ordered some cheap adaptors to suit my 8mm hose, so that won't be a problem. In the meantime, I've found a similar product for the UK market, albeit without the colour change feature. So while I'm waiting for the other one to become available, I've ordered one of these which is UK stock for quick delivery. I think this might be a good compromise solution. The desiccant drying solutions appear to be aimed at big spray shops where you need a lot of volume to be processed over extended periods. That's overkill for what I need, so something like this might just be what I need. This is a similar US product by the same company that do the colour change variety. Actually, if you scroll down, you'll see the specification for both of them.
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Post by steamer5 on Aug 13, 2020 11:54:10 GMT
Hi Roger, You beat me to it! I brought something similar when I got a bunch of stuff to do powder coating, you need dry air for that too! If I lived closer you could have a kilo of indicating silica gel!! Just a couple of things, you want to make sure you get ride of as much oil / oil vapour as you can before the silica gel, it doest kill it but it doest help matters! The silica gel is regeneratable, ( you need to get it out of those driers if you can, the orange one looks like you may be able to get it apart, not the other one,on that note you can get a silica gel drier that looks like the standard filter water trap), put it in an oven at about 110 c.....WARNING don't up set your domestic bliss buy doing it in the kitchen oven!! I don't think you mention but are you using a new or old hose up to your gun? an old one is likely to have an oil film on the inside which will just keep coming, maybe another trap / filter at the bench with a new hose there after. Keep at you'll beat it & we will all benefit from all your endeavors!
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by chris vine on Aug 13, 2020 13:26:56 GMT
Hi Roger,
Sounds like you are on the case here.
As kerrin says, oil will spoil the desiccant, that is why I was told to have the charcoal/oil remover before the drier. Please consider my offer open to borrow the pair.
If you do contact Duncan Rogers Engineering, please ask for Norman Rogers and mention my name. You will certainly get looked after and even get a good/special price!!
Once you are set up to remove oil, you will need to clean out the inside of your airline hose. I did this by putting some gun wash in at the far end and spraying it out with the gun at the other. it won't take many runs through to be clean...
Chris.
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jem
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,064
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Post by jem on Aug 13, 2020 16:48:55 GMT
In scuba diving compressors, we have silica jell driers, and then carbon filters in order to get clean dry air. both filters are straight through filters, for us very high pressure, and so thick steel containers, but for you any bit of pipe caped at each end would do, and coupled in line.
best wishes
Jem
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Post by Roger on Aug 13, 2020 20:33:01 GMT
Hopefully I'll answer all the points made in this post. I thought I'd better go back to basics and have a good look at what I've got for filtering the air, rather than assuming. Taking the cover off the Freeze Drier, it's clear that this is working as it should because there's condensation on the pipes which are pretty cold. The air initially goes through an oil separation and filter unit that's buried in the end of the Hydrovane Compressor. The air from that is hot, so it then goes through a pre-cooler which is that black rectangular box on the lower right. From there is comes up the green at the front and into the highest end of the coaxial cooling coil. After two complete turns in there, it exits as the back and then loops into the two oil/water separators. 20200813_134943 by Roger Froud, on Flickr The principle of freeze driers seems to be that the air is brought below the dew point of the water, so it separates out into large droplets which collect in the traps. This certainly works, the tray below the drains feed a containter on the floor which always has water in it after a run. Quite how much oil collects with the water and is drained is hard to say. The water certainly has some oil with it. 20200813_134959 by Roger Froud, on Flickr So the first surprise is that neither of the two water/oil separators have a filter fitted. Now, whether that was always the case or not is something I can't tell. However, it seems likely to me that at least one of them would have had one. You can see the float that operates the auto-drain in the bottom of the bowl I'm holding. I wiped out the bowl, and there's certainly a thin film of oil in there, but it's not running down the walls. Anyway, I thought it wise to fit a filter to the second trap. I don't see the point in doing so for the first one which is going to have to pass a lot of water and any oil that gets that far. The filter isn't readily available, but this 0.01micron filter which ought to be a drop in replacement looks like it might be what I need. It's pretty expensive, but all of these filters seem to be, so I'm taking a punt. It's the finest element they do, so hopefully it will do the job. So considering the only physical filter is the one in the compressor itself, I'm pretty impressed that it's stopping almost all of the oil and water getting through. By the time I fit the 0.01micron filter at the compressor, the 5micron filter/regulator unit in the office, and a desiccant filter inline, hopefully that will do the trick. That's three more physical filters than I've currently got, and it's almost good enough now. 20200813_162222 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Taking a closer look at the paint finish on the buffers, I decided that Chris Vine's upended version of the frame spit would be better for doing those. To that end, I've cut a slot in a piece of wood to act as a support so I can stand my arrangement on end. It's a lot of faffiing about to swap ends, so I'll do them separately. 20200813_200556 by Roger Froud, on Flickr I also took the opportunity to make a better shaft for the handle. It used to be just a piece of M8 threaded rod, but that tends to dig into the bearing and cause a horrible clanking noise. The new one is 8mm bar with an M8 thread screw cut on each end. It looks the same, but turns much more smoothly. 20200813_200621 by Roger Froud, on Flickr I've had these soaking all day in thinners in the bottom of the paint can, so they were easy to finish with a quick go in the shot blaster. I need to bake these and the frames to drive out any solvent that's hiding in the joints, so one more hot day would be welcome, even though I've had enough of this heat. How you guys in hotter climes cope is beyond me. Ill definitely be fitting the house with Air Conditioning if this starts to become a regular feature of the British Summer! Bring back the rain! 20200813_203350 by Roger Froud, on Flickr I'm going to fully paint these before attaching them to the frame. That's because it's hard to get the spray gun in there when they're attached. It just makes life unnecessarily hard. I think I'll fit them and mask them off before priming the chassis. That way I can still get the paint going right up to them. Masking off a precise area is problematical if I want to add these after the frames have been painted. It would also be hard to fit them without damaging the paint. What I plan to do is to hold them in place with some Allen grub screw and maybe some modified screws with tiny heads. The idea is to be able spray over the bolt positions without the heads being in the way. We'll have to see how that turns out. It's hard to see that it will be any worse than trying to spray around bolt heads. 20200813_204329 by Roger Froud, on Flickr So the frames also got shot blasted today, and soon I'll have to decide the best strategy for filling in the blemishes. I might use a couple of coats of etch primer and sand it back to the metal. Most of the marks aren't that deep, but it looks awful if it's just painted as it is.
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Post by Roger on Aug 14, 2020 17:41:21 GMT
Not much progress today, I've been out walking with friends, taking advantage of the cooler weather. However, I did set up this little cave for the frames to sit in while the fan heater gets it all up to a high temperature. 20200814_104150 by Roger Froud, on Flickr It's not as hot as I'd get it in the oven, but it's too big to fit in there. So this will have to suffice. Hopefully a couple of hours around 50C will to be enough time to drive out a lot of solvent trapped in the joints. 20200814_110208 by Roger Froud, on Flickr I was surprised that the new filter arrived first thing this morning, I only ordered it yesterday afternoon. 20200814_112159 by Roger Froud, on Flickr Thankfully it did fit, so the cross reference was correct. A quick test confirmed that although the filter is ultra fine, ie 0.01microns, the air flow seems unaffected. I disconnected the hose to the garden office and dumped a load of thinners into it. I then disconnected the end, wedged it in the door and blasted it through with compressed air. Hopefully that will have removed any traces of oil in there. 20200814_112437 by Roger Froud, on Flickr I'm going to wait for the other air filters to arrive before doing any more spraying. I'm using these Lint Free nail wipes that they use in nail bars for cleaning and general use on paintwork. They're an ideal size for that and reasonably priced. I'm getting through quite a few of them, this is the third order. 20200814_182312 by Roger Froud, on Flickr
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