|
Post by terrier060 on Aug 23, 2021 23:08:23 GMT
Bill used wick feeds with worstedtrimmings in his Speedy which worked well. The wicks were held on very fine wire. Hi Ed, I think he was probably using much thinner oil than I'm proposing. I'm not sure if this will work with wicks at all. It will need a bit of experimentation to see what works best. Ideally I'd like to stick with the 680 grade if possible so it stays in the bearings longer. No he used cylinder oil, in his oil can for all his oiling points as I do. Thin oil just gets flung out and does not go where you want it! It is amazing where oli will flow. Try doing a test. Ed
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 24, 2021 8:00:34 GMT
Hi Ed, I think he was probably using much thinner oil than I'm proposing. I'm not sure if this will work with wicks at all. It will need a bit of experimentation to see what works best. Ideally I'd like to stick with the 680 grade if possible so it stays in the bearings longer. No he used cylinder oil, in his oil can for all his oiling points as I do. Thin oil just gets flung out and does not go where you want it! It is amazing where oli will flow. Try doing a test. Ed That's good to know. I tried a test with the axlesboxes, and found that while cold and static, it took ages to get the 680 grade oil through. It did in the end though. It will be interesting to see how it all works out in practice. If thicker oil is more appropriate, I'll switch to that.
|
|
|
Post by steamer5 on Aug 24, 2021 8:30:47 GMT
Hi Roger, You know what’s going to happen, while you have Speedy all tucked up at home you have little puddles of oil forming under the axel boxes & everywhere else!! Tip to the wise have a tray that fits under the rails that you store Speedy on…..you don’t need to ask how I found out that one was necessary!
Early days of running I used to use different oils, including gas turbine oil in the axel boxes, theory being that it could handle the heat from the fire box. One day not having that can handy just used the steam oil, never went back. As has been said it gets in and seems to like being there, it has to get pretty hot for the viscosity to get down. I don’t think I ever did any testing on steam oil back i the day, but fuel oil that we used was soild at room temp, it didn’t need that much heat to make it flow, it was full of waxes.
Cheers Kerrin
|
|
|
Post by 92220 on Aug 24, 2021 9:31:15 GMT
Hi Roger.
lovely little oil boxes Roger! I have a portable induction ring, to heat up a pan of water, by the brazing hearth. I boil all my silversoldering for 5 to 10 minutes. That usually gets most of the flux off, before having to resort to fine emery. If it is really bad, I just dunk it in the phosphoric acid bath for a few minutes, before washing it off with running water. The phosphoric will eat away at steel parts if left too long, but has very little effect on brass and copper, except to get the surface marking off.
Bob.
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 24, 2021 10:19:54 GMT
Hi Roger, You know what’s going to happen, while you have Speedy all tucked up at home you have little puddles of oil forming under the axel boxes & everywhere else!! Tip to the wise have a tray that fits under the rails that you store Speedy on…..you don’t need to ask how I found out that one was necessary! Early days of running I used to use different oils, including gas turbine oil in the axel boxes, theory being that it could handle the heat from the fire box. One day not having that can handy just used the steam oil, never went back. As has been said it gets in and seems to like being there, it has to get pretty hot for the viscosity to get down. I don’t think I ever did any testing on steam oil back i the day, but fuel oil that we used was soild at room temp, it didn’t need that much heat to make it flow, it was full of waxes. Cheers Kerrin Hi Kerrin, I've already seen that happen on just the axleboxes I've filled. Your suggestion of a tray makes perfect sense, and it's what I've got on my Mill and Grinder for the same reasons. It sounds like I'm on the right track with heavy oils rather than light ones though. As you say, it's going to flow more when it's warm.
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 24, 2021 10:22:04 GMT
Hi Roger. lovely little oil boxes Roger! I have a portable induction ring, to heat up a pan of water, by the brazing hearth. I boil all my silversoldering for 5 to 10 minutes. That usually gets most of the flux off, before having to resort to fine emery. If it is really bad, I just dunk it in the phosphoric acid bath for a few minutes, before washing it off with running water. The phosphoric will eat away at steel parts if left too long, but has very little effect on brass and copper, except to get the surface marking off. Bob. Hi Bob, I may have to get some of that Phosphoric Acid. The flux comes of easily in the Ultrasonic Tank, it's only that Red Oxide that's a sod to get off. Usually I smother everything with flux, so it's not a problem. I don't know what I was thinking of really, I normally do that. You live and learn!
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 24, 2021 21:38:55 GMT
Here's a reminder of what the cylinders should look like, with a bolted flange against the frame and the exhaust channel covered etc. These details are all missing from SPEEDY, and I've already machined the cylinders, so these are getting added to get the cosmetics a bit more accurate. As often is the case with Engineering, we have to go from where we are, rather than where we would like to be. DSCN5620 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I machined the front and rear covers some time ago from 3mm Steel plate, and now I need to Silver Solder on the flanges. So here they are on the Shot Blasting Cabinet, having been given a good going over to remove the mill scale. 20210823_122223 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The flanges are located with 1.6mm diameter Silver Steel pins to make sure they stay in the right place. I was going to Silver Solder them today, but I realised that I only have 0.5mm diameter wire, and that's not suitable. I want to lay a length of 1.5mm diameter wire in the corner to get it to penetrate right through the joint and form a nice fillet. I've ordered some of that from eBay on a 3 day delivery. 20210824_171430 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 25, 2021 17:43:11 GMT
The crosshead on 1501 has this Oil Box welded to the top cover plate. It also has a stiffener across at an angle that I've decided to add as well. More of that later. 2015-05-02 10.45.22 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr This is another obvious candidate for a 'part on a stick', especially since that makes it easy to turn it over and machine the back radii without letting go. The pocket is only roughed out at this point, it's finished with a smaller cutter to get a tighter corner. It's not really necessary, but it will hold more oil if I do that. You can just make out the radii on the outer cormers that locate in the pocket which has matching radii. 20210824_214928 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr A quick sanity check to make sure it fits. 20210824_214910 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The oil hole was drilled, then the whole thing flipped over and the wobbler used to get it lined up. As usual, the centre of the bar is zero so I can turn it over to repeat the same detail on the other side. My utility program interprets the ANGLEREP2 command I placed in the comment part of the Machining Operation so that it creates a callable program that indexeds 180 degrees and repeats. So here, I've machined a clearance beyond what will become the top of the box so that the cutter has somewhere to go when I'm 3D machining the radius. 20210824_225725 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Then it's just a matter of parting it off and getting to work with hand tools. 20210824_230702 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I'd already machined the location pocket in the top plate and drilled the oil hole through the body and the Phosphor Bronze slipper plate underneath. You can see the inside of the box has smaller radii now. 20210824_232945 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr And this is how it looks in place. 20210824_233037 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 25, 2021 20:01:06 GMT
Here's the crosshead again, so you can see the strengthening plate on the left. You'll notice that SPEEDY can't have more than four bolts on the back because there needs to be more clearance for the connecting rods. 2015-05-02 10.45.22 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I've just guessed the sizes, this is just going to be a nod to what should be there. The sheet is nominally 1.2mm thick, so I've cut these 1.1mm deep so they just stay attached. 20210825_170154 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Holding the top plate is easier if it's attached to the crosshead, so I left that in place. Here I'm clocking along the top to get it level. The black marker is a sanity check to make sure it looks like it's going to machine in the right place. I've just mirrored the programs in X for the other hand. 20210825_173116 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr This is the new(ish) wobbler I made for the High Speed Spindle. I've had to drop the minimum speed of that on the Frequency Converter else it won't work. 20210825_174658 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The slot was initally roughed out with a 1mm carbide 4-flute, and here it's getting finished off using a 0.5mm PCB burr. It's easier to get the piece to fit in the slot if only the corners need a little 0.5mm radius. I'm only taking 0.1mm deep cuts on this, there's no point in breaking the cutter by rushing, you waste more time than taking it slowly. 20210825_181749 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr These cleaned up really easily... 20210825_181825 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr ... and here's a quick check to make sure they're a nice fit in the pocket 20210825_184430 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr OK, it's not a dead ringer, but it's better than nothing. If you didn't know the locomotive, you'd never know. 20210825_204719 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The guide bars also needed the three 1mm diameter Oil Holes added from the top to bottom. Here, I've peck drilled them with 1mm PCB drills to 2mm deep and then finished them off with a HSS drill in the pin chuck. PCB drills are amazing, but fairly brittle. I don't want to break on off when it's deep in the hole because it's going to be really hard to get out. This is why I set things like this up accurately. If a drill does break, I know I can set it up from the other side and be as close as possible to the hole with the broken drill. Drilling into a broken Carbide drill is likely to end in tears, but a HSS one would just get machined away. 20210825_220554 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr 20210825_222703 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
|
|
jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
|
Post by jma1009 on Aug 25, 2021 22:52:43 GMT
Excellent work on the oil boxes, Roger!
I do wonder whether some of the recollections of Bill Perrett's 'Speedy' are accurate.
It won IMLEC twice and clearly Bill was an excellent driver.
I do consider what Bill may have told some people to be not entirely the whole truth. I don't believe at all that Bill had only one oil can that was only filled with cylinder oil! (And even taking into account that in the 1960s and 1970s you could easily get different grades of steam oil). Bearing oil is bearing oil in a multitude of grades and combinations, and in my book is for the bearings and other bits.
Steam oil is for the steam chests and cylinders
The suggestion that Bill made up miniature Worsted trimmings to feed bearings using steam oil is as ridiculous as it fantastical (as in the realms of fantasy).
I would bet on Bill getting from Eastleigh Works all the correct grades of oil in the mid to late 1960s in some quantity. He had the contacts.
Ed is going to tell us he only has one oil can filled with steam oil that he oils his Myford slide ways with and all his antique clocks!
It is a ridiculous suggestion from me of Ed's practice, and equally ridiculous in my opinion for Ed to suggest it was Bill Perrett's practice 50 years ago.
Cheers, Julian
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 25, 2021 23:03:12 GMT
I do wonder whether some of the recollections of Bill Perrett's 'Speedy' are accurate. It won IMLEC twice and clearly Bill was an excellent driver. I do consider what Bill may have told some people to be not entirely the whole truth. I don't believe at all that Bill had only one oil can that was only filled with cylinder oil! (And even taking into account that in the 1960s and 1970s you could easily get different grades of steam oil). Bearing oil is bearing oil in a multitude of grades and combinations, and in my book steam oil (also in a multitude of grades) is for the bearings and other bits. The suggestion that Bill made up miniature Worsted trimmings to feed bearings using steam oil is as ridiculous as it fantastical (as in the realms of fantasy). I would bet on Bill getting from Eastleigh Works all the correct grades of oil in the mid to late 1960s in some quantity. He had the contacts. Ed is going to tell us he only has one oil can filled with steam oil that he oils his Myford slide ways with and all his antique clocks! It is a ridiculous suggestion from me of Ed's practice, and equally ridiculous in my opinion for Ed to suggest it was Bill Perrett's practice 50 years ago. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, I'm not so sure about the oil grade. I've experimented with various grades, and taken on the experience of Ross in Sydney, and 680 grade is what I settled on because thinner oil found its way much too easily through the bearings in a static test. That's not so far away from Steam Oil, and maybe it's not so implausible that 1000 grade could be used instead? One thing to note about Bill's SPEEDY is that the oil box is in the cab next to the backhead, so it's going to be pretty warm. I have no experience with trimmings, so I can't comment on that.
|
|
dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
|
Post by dscott on Aug 25, 2021 23:12:49 GMT
Sunday saw another familiar 1504 arrive in the Steaming bays at Maidstone. Friend David got her ready and was carefully watched over for any dubious oiling or other magic dust sprinkled. The next bit I missed as we were on the First official run of the day. (Tom putting his Jinty away at around 1.30 that morning and me finding the Carbed in the dark.) A superb run apart from a stop for a blow up. But she was soon going again. Davids valve gear is closer to scale being Don Young's and he having a smaller boiler also closer to scale. He coming in second 'AGAIN' shows what wonderful Locomotives these are even on Aluminum rails.
David and Lily.
PS the oil was not taken a sample of for further scrutiny by the observer.
The winning locomotive had steel tires!
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 26, 2021 21:17:04 GMT
Time to Silver Solder the Oil Box top and the Stiffeners in place. Here I've bent a square of 0.5mm Silver Solder Wire to carefully fit around the Oil Box. I haven't finished adding all of the flux yet so you can see where it is. I also made a rectangle to go around the Stiffener. 20210826_142300 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The parts were secured with Florist's wire and the back was also liberally smothered with flux. 20210826_142312 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr So far so good... 20210826_143123 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr ... except the Stiffener was sitting at an angle. Trying to straighten that up with the wire removed only made it come out. Bugger! It was also clear that the amount of Silver Solder was much too great, and that I should have used Tippex to keep it in check. I don't know what I was thinking of really. Oh well. 20210826_150039 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Rather than try to work on it with the Silver Solder being molten, and risking it ending up as a black mess, I decided to set it up again in the Mill and machine out the Silver Solder that was in the slot. 20210826_152447 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr 20210826_160613 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I then filed away the excess Silver Solder and realised that the issue was that the register I'd filed on the corners of the Stiffener didn't go far enough, and that's why it was rocking in the slot. With that rectified, it sat much more accurately. 20210826_172558 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr This time I've protected the areas surrounding the joints with Tippex, and made two horseshoe shaped pieces of Silver Solder instead of a full rectangle. 20210826_173357 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Once again, Florist's wire stops things from coming out. 20210826_174543 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr 20210826_174830 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr This is how it looked straight out of the Ultrasonic Tank. It's brilliant at removing the flux. 20210826_180950 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Here's the other one getting the same treatment. 20210826_204527 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr 20210826_204748 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The key to success is in the preparation. You need to make sure that nothing can move, because given half a chance it will. Silver Solder will also go anywhere it likes unless you stop it. The more flux the merrier. Yes, it's a bit wasteful, but the wire was completely submerged in the glassy lake, and it all heated up and melted in one instant. No balling and struggling to get it to flow around the joint, it just happened. 20210826_210210 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr 20210826_210228 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr And finally, after a little work on the fillets of Silver Solder with Needle Files and a buffing up, they look like this. 20210826_212721 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I bought this big bag of abrasive wheels for the Dremel from eBay for £7.99, and they work brilliantly on this sort of job. I've never used them before, but I'll certainly be using them again. 20210826_213452 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr And finally, here's another eBay purchase for Blunt Needles which were £3.99 for 10 pieces. These ones are 1mm diameter, and I bought them for filling the volcano oilers. This hole is much bigger, at 1.6mm 20210826_213800 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr So these are almost finished now. I just need to decide about any locking of the threads into the bosses and whether to fit a dummy cotter. The cotter could potentially lock the thread, but I'm not sure I like that idea. I'll probably use a drop of screw lock on the thread and just make a dummy cotter.
|
|
|
Post by simplyloco on Aug 27, 2021 7:04:03 GMT
They look very good. Have you not considered using silver solder paste? Used with 'frogs' I'm now cleaning up with just a wire brush and the occasional needle file!
|
|
|
Post by 92220 on Aug 27, 2021 7:46:21 GMT
Hi Roger. lovely little oil boxes Roger! I have a portable induction ring, to heat up a pan of water, by the brazing hearth. I boil all my silversoldering for 5 to 10 minutes. That usually gets most of the flux off, before having to resort to fine emery. If it is really bad, I just dunk it in the phosphoric acid bath for a few minutes, before washing it off with running water. The phosphoric will eat away at steel parts if left too long, but has very little effect on brass and copper, except to get the surface marking off. Bob. Hi Bob, I may have to get some of that Phosphoric Acid. The flux comes of easily in the Ultrasonic Tank, it's only that Red Oxide that's a sod to get off. Usually I smother everything with flux, so it's not a problem. I don't know what I was thinking of really, I normally do that. You live and learn! Hi Roger. Well done with those crossheads!! They have come out superbly......though we have come to anticipate nothing less!!! As far as phosphoric acid goes, it really does well, and lasts ages. The one thing you have to know about it is that it works much better when diluted to about 15% acid in water. It's phosphating is much quicker and more resistant to surface damage. I did say that it will eat into steel if left too long. It is quite safe to have steel in it for 20 to 30 minutes but not much longer. Using it for brass and copper cleaning works well but it takes up copper, takes on a bluish colour, and will then cold copper plate steel parts in the same way copper sulphate solution does. As an 'aside', the copper plating feature is handy for telling which pieces of steel are mild and which are stainless, if muddled up in the same pile. Mild steel copper plates with both solutions, but it has no effect on stainless. Bob.
|
|
|
Post by 92220 on Aug 27, 2021 8:11:55 GMT
Hi Roger.
I have been thinking about all the small brackets and parts that are fitted to my loco backhead, which I am working on at the moment, and the painting of it and them. I have been doing some experimenting that you may find of interest for small parts. I have been cold chemical blacking the backhead and brackets. Because it is blacking the surface of the metal, with no increase in dimensions, very fine detail stays sharp and easily seen. Brass, copper, nickel silver, aluminium, and steel can all be cold chemically blacked, though different chemicals are needed for some of the metals.
My backhead should be made up of 8 separate plates, but is made of one 0.5mm nickel silver plate, and the individual plates that should make it up, are scored in, using a new Stanley knife blade. Painting would almost certainly hide these joints but chemical blacking has kept them totally visible. Large areas of blacking, like the backhead, are easily damaged though so I am going to experiment with Black Nickel Plating, for which I have bought a small kit. I think the plating will be much more resistant to damage than cold chemical blacking, so I may do everything that way if it works out. I also understand from the supplier, that the plating finish is adjustable from full gloss down to dull (eggshell), just by adjusting the voltage used, so that is handy too. The blacking colour can also be adjusted from a grey to a deep black. Obviously, the longer something is plated, the thicker the plating will be, so fine detail like the scored lines, may be lost when plated, so may need to be deeper to remain visible. When I have some helpfull info, I will let you know.
Bob.
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2021 8:44:05 GMT
They look very good. Have you not considered using silver solder paste? Used with 'frogs' I'm now cleaning up with just a wire brush and the occasional needle file! Hi John, I really should make a Frog, that's such a useful item. I like the idea that it places a constant force on the item you're holding. I've never used Silver Solder paste, but I can see that it might be handy. It's certainly a very controlled way to get Solder into the joint. I do find the really thin wire works well though. Smothering it all in flux stops it from 'balling up', but it does take a little bit of time to carefully bend the wire shapes. It is a cheap option though. I'll have to get some Silver Solder paste to have a play with. There are definitely some cases where it would be a good option.
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2021 8:52:16 GMT
Hi Bob, I may have to get some of that Phosphoric Acid. The flux comes of easily in the Ultrasonic Tank, it's only that Red Oxide that's a sod to get off. Usually I smother everything with flux, so it's not a problem. I don't know what I was thinking of really, I normally do that. You live and learn! Hi Roger. Well done with those crossheads!! They have come out superbly......though we have come to anticipate nothing less!!! As far as phosphoric acid goes, it really does well, and lasts ages. The one thing you have to know about it is that it works much better when diluted to about 15% acid in water. It's phosphating is much quicker and more resistant to surface damage. I did say that it will eat into steel if left too long. It is quite safe to have steel in it for 20 to 30 minutes but not much longer. Using it for brass and copper cleaning works well but it takes up copper, takes on a bluish colour, and will then cold copper plate steel parts in the same way copper sulphate solution does. As an 'aside', the copper plating feature is handy for telling which pieces of steel are mild and which are stainless, if muddled up in the same pile. Mild steel copper plates with both solutions, but it has no effect on stainless. Bob. Hi Bob, Looking on eBay, there seems to be a lot of different ways to buy this, what would you recommend? There are 5L ones mixed to a variety of percentages, and 1L ones to higher concentrations. Is this really hazardous so I'd be better off buying the 30% one and then diluting it further rather than have a high concentration? It's interesting that they only go down to 30%. How did you come to your figure?
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2021 8:56:16 GMT
Hi Roger. I have been thinking about all the small brackets and parts that are fitted to my loco backhead, which I am working on at the moment, and the painting of it and them. I have been doing some experimenting that you may find of interest for small parts. I have been cold chemical blacking the backhead and brackets. Because it is blacking the surface of the metal, with no increase in dimensions, very fine detail stays sharp and easily seen. Brass, copper, nickel silver, aluminium, and steel can all be cold chemically blacked, though different chemicals are needed for some of the metals. My backhead should be made up of 8 separate plates, but is made of one 0.5mm nickel silver plate, and the individual plates that should make it up, are scored in, using a new Stanley knife blade. Painting would almost certainly hide these joints but chemical blacking has kept them totally visible. Large areas of blacking, like the backhead, are easily damaged though so I am going to experiment with Black Nickel Plating, for which I have bought a small kit. I think the plating will be much more resistant to damage than cold chemical blacking, so I may do everything that way if it works out. I also understand from the supplier, that the plating finish is adjustable from full gloss down to dull (eggshell), just by adjusting the voltage used, so that is handy too. The blacking colour can also be adjusted from a grey to a deep black. Obviously, the longer something is plated, the thicker the plating will be, so fine detail like the scored lines, may be lost when plated, so may need to be deeper to remain visible. When I have some helpfull info, I will let you know. Bob. Hi Bob, I'm very interested in the Black Nickel Plating, that sounds very useful indeed. Do let us know what you think of it, because I'd definitely have a go at that. Where are you getting your kit from? Chemical blacking is all very well, but it doesn't give any corrosion resistance in my experience. Things like Steel nuts and bolts would be much better plated in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by terrier060 on Aug 28, 2021 0:15:13 GMT
Well I suppose it was to be expected that Julian would shoot off without any knowledge of what he is talking about. I don't usually get annoyed, but I drove Bill's engine week after week and he was my hero, I know because he taught me so much, which I used on my own Tank loco. He was a great fan of LBSC and used to quote him a lot. The oil boxes in the cab fed the axleboxes and the eccentrics to the axle pumps. The cylinder oil was thick so that it did not run out of the boxes too fast. The wicks could be lifted if necessary to stop e oil running out, though I actually never saw him do it other than to demonstrate it to us. He may have done when the loco was laid up. If I remember correctly I used to oil the small end by squirting the oil through a hole in the side of the crosshead. There was a brass cup on thhe top of the crosshead. One thing that always puzzled me was that Bill was such a perfectionist (He got a silver or gold medal at the ME exhibition with his traction engine) that one side of the crosshead had the bolt threads showing where they had come through the wall of the crosshead. I wondered why he had never made anoither one, as the one the otherside was perfect? Merlin may remember, as he knew the loco well, and very sadly my friend Barry Eden is no longer with us as he and I used to drive the engine for Bill when he had gone off to chat or have a cup of tea. We would steam up the loco for Bill and oil round her, then Bill would always take the first shift to make sure he was satisfied that all was working correctly. The engine was always emmaculate. Then he would pass the engine over to us for the rest of the afternoon.
|
|