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Post by starspider on Feb 27, 2007 22:20:02 GMT
I have to move my "workshop" to a smaller shed for m/c tools I have the usual Myford and a Chester 626 turret mill. Trouble is the mill is too large to fit into the new shed, bearing in mind I work on mostly 5" gauge stuff plus bits and bobs for my cars wondered what you guys use for milling. Vertical slides with your lathes, smaller bench mills, those strange lathe/mill combo m/c's. I am leaning towards a heavier lathe like a small Colchester or similar but in all my years in engineering have never seen one with a vertical slide. so come one what do you use and for what?? colin
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Post by stantheman on Feb 28, 2007 6:47:23 GMT
Colin. MOPO for serious milling you just can't beat a dedicated machine. Vertical slides are fine in the first instance, but when trying to take serious cuts they leave a lot to be desired. It was once pointed out to me to take note of the various overhangs and distances from tool edge to the bed of the machine, very often with extra chatter built in. Also look closely at the direction of thrust when cutting, against the slides etc. The heavier, and therefore more solid, machines do a better job by absorbing some of the vibrations etc caused when working. last Spring I got hold of a Warco VMC Turret Mill, not very expensive but fairly solid. I have not looked back since. I have since sold both of my Myford vertical slides. Stan
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Feb 28, 2007 7:22:13 GMT
I use a bench mill that has the same 2MT and nose thread as a Myford, so all the tooling is interchangeable. www.lathes.co.uk/amolco/Likewise my rotary table and dividing head have adaptors for the myford nose thread so jobs can be moved back and forth between the lathe and the mill without removal from a chuck or faceplate. (Cylinder end covers for example where you want to add flats and drill for the stud holes is one job where this comes in handy) As said, the bigger the better, but I can't think of any jobs in 5" gauge it could not tackle. If you really want to go down the heavier lathe route consider a Boxford 5" preferably in AUD or BUD form; that has a t-slotted cross slide available to which you can add a vertical slide, but I would go with Stan's opinion and not do this. John
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Feb 28, 2007 10:32:28 GMT
I have a vertical slide and I don't use it it is better to have two small machines .
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Post by Laurie_B on Feb 28, 2007 10:58:46 GMT
I bought a 'Wabeco' F1210E about 6 years ago.It came from PRO Machine Tools in Stamford.They have a stand at most exhibitions.I too had a look at the Chester 626 mill,but it was physically too big for my workshop,whereas the Wabeco mill fits in just nicely.I've found it a very accurate machine. Many years ago my brother and I owned a 3-1/2" Perfecto lathe.Anyone remember them?!It was used for quite a bit of milling work,though we would really have liked a milling machine at that time.
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Noddy
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Post by Noddy on Mar 1, 2007 14:09:35 GMT
I'm also looking for a mill and was thinking along the VMC lines, although I don't know if I could fit it into the house without dismantling and re assembling.
With the smaller "mills" and I include the Wabeco, are they actually set up to mill steel? or are they simply "me too" machines that sell?
Reason I'm asking is I've heard people say that the light mills are ok on plastic and softer metals but lack the rigidity and weight to achieve good surface finish on steel. can anyone with experience of small mills and full sized industrial mills comment?
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Post by Laurie_B on Mar 1, 2007 17:20:14 GMT
With the smaller "mills" and I include the Wabeco, are they actually set up to mill steel? or are they simply "me too" machines that sell? Hi Noddy, I bought a Wabeco mill just over 5 years ago,and I've been very pleased with it.It is the version fitted with the larger table.It will accurately cut steel and cast iron without any problems.I've now gone onto using indexable milling cutters,instead of HSS end mills;metal removal rates and and surface finish are very good indeed.It has electronic speed control,so no having to fiddle with drive belts and coned pulleys. Whenever I've seen these machines at exhibitions,they always seem to be set up milling aluminium,which I guess is supposed to impress potential customers!But they will cut harder metals too. If not already fitted at the factory,they can be retro-fitted with table power feeds,and also fitted with CNC gear,(though I'm told the motors are different) though personally I think CNC is definitely 'gilding the lily' somewhat. It is quite a compact machine,though I thought the cabinet it sits on could have been a little more robust;worth thinking about.Good luck with your search.
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 1, 2007 19:25:37 GMT
With the smaller "mills" and I include the Wabeco, are they actually set up to mill steel? or are they simply "me too" machines that sell? If not already fitted at the factory,they can be retro-fitted with table power feeds,and also fitted with CNC gear,(though I'm told the motors are different) though personally I think CNC is definitely 'gilding the lily' somewhat. Ohh I don't know. Do you mean trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear?? If it is a "lily", any quality mill is worth the £600 or so you need to cnc it (plus a bit of blood and sweat, and indeed swearing) surely? It would solve Alan's current query about oval bits, it solves the current discussion about laser cutting (except for frames perhaps, unless you have a very big mill). If you go 4 axis it then becomes the tool of choice, sometimes, over lathework. John
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 1, 2007 22:25:31 GMT
So it might, but, to take my case as you mentioned me, is it likely I would live long enough to learn how to use it? From what I have seen of CNC, very unlikely.
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Post by Laurie_B on Mar 1, 2007 23:01:06 GMT
If not already fitted at the factory,they can be retro-fitted with table power feeds,and also fitted with CNC gear,(though I'm told the motors are different) though personally I think CNC is definitely 'gilding the lily' somewhat. Ohh I don't know. Do you mean trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear?? If it is a "lily", any quality mill is worth the £600 or so you need to cnc it (plus a bit of blood and sweat, and indeed swearing) surely? It would solve Alan's current query about oval bits, it solves the current discussion about laser cutting (except for frames perhaps, unless you have a very big mill). If you go 4 axis it then becomes the tool of choice, sometimes, over lathework. John Definitely "gilding the lily" applies here,John!Pigs' lug 'oles might apply to some products of Far Eastern origin! CNC?Is programming a computer to tell a machine tool to make a certain component actually real model engineering?
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Post by chameleonrob on Mar 1, 2007 23:09:31 GMT
CNC?Is programming a computer to tell a machine tool to make a certain component actually real model engineering? of coarse! you still need all the skills used for manual milling but now without so much time spent twiddling knobs (in theory), you're doing the work, not the guy at your local laser cutter... just wish I could afford the kit to CNC my mill, and a mill worth CNCing. rob
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Noddy
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Post by Noddy on Mar 2, 2007 19:43:31 GMT
I'm thinking a little more Wabeco than VMC now, but what about the rigidity? will I be limited to small cutters and or chattery finish on steel when compared to a bigger knee'd machine like a VMC or bigger? keith
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Noddy
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Post by Noddy on Mar 2, 2007 19:49:48 GMT
Fourth and fifth axes hmmmm, how well does perspex mill?
You got me thinking about an old dream. I've got the full set of dimensioned drawings for a luger, but I'd want to make it out of something that the boys in blue couldn't use as a pretext for putting me up at the station while they lift my floor boards and remove the plaster from my walls. keith
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Post by chameleonrob on Mar 2, 2007 23:15:21 GMT
I'm thinking a little more Wabeco than VMC now, but what about the rigidity? will I be limited to small cutters and or chattery finish on steel when compared to a bigger knee'd machine like a VMC or bigger? keith look at it this way, I have an X1 mill from arc euro trade (http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/en-gb/dept_156.html), just about the smallest mill on the market. With sharp cutters I can take a cut 10mm deep, 1mm wide at 500 (ish) rpm at a feed of about 2mm a second, and get a mirror finish. only problem is that it's so cheap that it won't last long with that treatment, a problem that a quality mill like Wabeco won't suffer from. As for cutters, I'm limited to what I can put in a 2 MT collet, 12mm or 1/2", plus a 3/4" indexable carbide end mill, and to be honest thats all I normally need. rob
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Post by Laurie_B on Mar 3, 2007 15:27:40 GMT
I'm thinking a little more Wabeco than VMC now, but what about the rigidity? will I be limited to small cutters and or chattery finish on steel when compared to a bigger knee'd machine like a VMC or bigger? keith Hi Noddy and Rob, Following on from Rob's post,there is quite a selection of machine tools,each of different capacity,to choose from these days. As for the Wabeco mill,experience with my machine would confirm it is quite a rigid machine.The largest HSS end mill I've used so far is 3/4",and with the Autolock chuck I've had no problems. Then there is a 40mm (sorry about the mixed units!) indexable face cutter which fits into the spindle 2MT taper and is secured with the draw bar.This cutter works very well indeed,and as there is less tool 'overhang' it is even more rigid.I've occasionally used the mill for fly-cutting,not exactly the most rigid of tool set-ups,but the results were still very good. Just for interest the link will show the operation,on a drag box fabrication I did recently. i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/73082/PB040004.jpgI've not tried milling perspex. PRO Machine Tools should be at the Harrogate Show in May,so it might be worth having a look,if you are attending,otherwise they do have a catalogue.I think the man to talk to is Brian Tate.
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Noddy
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Post by Noddy on Mar 8, 2007 18:08:11 GMT
Sorry to Starspider, I know I seem to have hijacked your thread here. I had a look at the promachinetools site and then at Chronos for some prices. I can afford a wabeco (but it means eating dog food for a while), however a quick look at compucut's site has raised another question. I know that they are using a small and cheap mill for their x1 project, but they pointed out that the vertical slides would wear quickly due to the weight of the head being so far from the axis of the slide ways. they were therefore replacing and balancing the quill for it to provide the vertical axis movement. I've never heard of longevity issues with a wabeco's vertical movement. has anyone any thoughts on this? is this a general criticism of the drill press format of machine compared to the knee type machines? Keith www.compucutters.com/machines/x1Project/x1projectMore.htm
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Post by John Lee on Mar 8, 2007 18:37:22 GMT
Keith,
That would of course be the case in the longer term anyway, but in the case of a cnc mill wear comes along quicker just because they generally do so much more work. In the same way, standard feedscrews wear out much quicker, when a cnc'd mill changes direction it changes NOW, although sympathetic programming reduces this. So that's fair comment really on Compucut's part.
A knee mill is better of course, most heavy duty industrial designs are of this format, but it should not put people off other types for typical model engineering use IMHO
Regards,
John
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Post by starspider on Mar 9, 2007 10:16:33 GMT
Sorry to Starspider, I know I seem to have hijacked your thread here. Thats OK Noddy I have managed I think to fit the mill in on paper at least by storing some non engineering stuff in a non heated shed (wife and sons bike ) colin
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Noddy
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Post by Noddy on Mar 9, 2007 11:21:00 GMT
Hi Starspider, Got to share this with you. Two of my friends (one married, the other a bachelor) used to joke to the married one's wife that if she really loved him, she should be a proper wife to him and move into the garden shed, so that he could have the lathe and mill in the livingroom.
One is now divorced, the other is now a spinster....
good luck... Keith
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Post by Laurie_B on Mar 9, 2007 12:33:45 GMT
. I've never heard of longevity issues with a wabeco's vertical movement. has anyone any thoughts on this? is this a general criticism of the drill press format of machine compared to the knee type machines? Keith Hello Keith, I would agree that the 'knee' type of machine (for example,the Centec 2A and 2B mills) is a better arrangement. Regarding the Wabeco,with my machine: a) the vertical slide bearing area (as with the other axes) seems to be quite generous, b) I find that I don't actually move the head on the vertical axis all that much,initially to set the cutter height to suit the workpiece and then subsequently to put on a cut.Most of the table movements are on the X and Y axes. After over 5 years use there is no discernable wear on the vertical axis slides. Hope this is of interest.
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