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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 12:22:40 GMT
I have read on many occassions that 'it takes a lifetime' to master skills such as filing , scraping or machining etc .
All I can say is that people who take a lifetime to learn filing , scraping or machining must be pretty dim .
Taking the example of filing :
Under good tuition an average person can learn the basics in a day , be reasonably competent in a week and be a world class expert in a fortnight . Without tuition many hobbyists learn to file reasonably well in not too much longer a time .
So - anyone think there is any truth in the 'it takes a lifetime' claim ????
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 12:33:05 GMT
I don't Michael and for anyone who's creative and good with their hands they should be able to take on any new skill and be fairly competent in it within a reasonable amount of time ...but i do believe that a lifetimes worth of experience in any field is worth it's weight in gold...
Pete
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 26, 2015 12:34:17 GMT
I have read on many occassions that 'it takes a lifetime' to master skills such as filing , scraping or machining etc . All I can say is that people who take a lifetime to learn filing , scraping or machining must be pretty dim . Taking the example of filing : Under good tuition an average person can learn the basics in a day , be reasonably competent in a week and be a world class expert in a fortnight . Without tuition many hobbyists learn to file reasonably well in not too much longer a time . So - anyone think there is any truth in the 'it takes a lifetime' claim  ? Of course it doesn't, but aptitude and attitude can exert quite an influence on the learning time. My partner's brother in law has a PhD in physics, and was a main board director of a large British car manufacturer, but he has no mechanical aptitude whatsoever, and if I gave him a file I would get just a contemptuous look! I'll bow out now as I completed a full apprenticeship, and I'm biased! John |
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 26, 2015 12:38:56 GMT
A proper engineering apprenticeship with, say, one of the railway companies, took 5 years full time, plus evening classes.
At the end, you would be skilled, but according to the older (at the time) guys, still had a lot to learn.
I met some of these guys when I started and the general feeling was that you never stopped learning because nobody could know everything.
Many of the mundane tasks,are far more skilled than most people think.
I once spent time with a blacksmith (no, not a farrier) and he taught me the basics of using a cold chisel.
Whilst I am better than I was, I couldnt do a fraction of the jobs he managed.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
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Post by uuu on Mar 26, 2015 12:49:50 GMT
There are some people who can take a twist drill to a grindstone and with a deft flick of the wrist can sharpen a drill so it cuts beautifully. I don't know if it's taken them a lifetime to learn, but I do know that practice does not seem to improve my efforts. I sold my piano after 40 years of trying.
Wilf
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Post by goldstar31 on Mar 26, 2015 12:56:41 GMT
Err humm! My fellow Goldstar( still alive at 85) looked after Spitfire, Anson and Proctor engines- with 6 weeks training- at 18.
My father was a sapper/farrier in the Royal Engineers- teaching at 17.
Seemingly, I was the youngest( just) paid Corporal in the RAF- during my National Service with only 6 weeks training at a barely 19.
The grim story is the other Goldstar was an airframe basher and was a National Service Leading Aircraftsman and killed before he was 20.
Real world, I'm afraid. Worth thinking about, though.Not quite what you expected, eh?
Norman
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 13:06:50 GMT
Learning the basic skills should never take very long . It is learning to apply those skills to practical problems that takes longer .
Even so the standard apprenticeships of 3 to 5 years normally provide enough skills and practical experience to tackle almost anything .
Some of it is down to human nature though . In their working lives some engineers take an interest in every job and learn a bit more each time while other engineers just go through the motions each day and learn very little .
My mother was WAAF ground crew in the war . Six weeks basic training and then first posting was as ground maintenance crew on Sunderlands at Pembroke Dock . Doing safety critical preflight equipment checks at 17 .
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Post by steamlaser on Mar 26, 2015 13:22:51 GMT
In my now closed Engineering Dept (it did not fit in with the greater academic plan) In general ,we had three types of students.
1. Those who had a natural flair and were good at everything both theoretical and practical. They dived onto any machine/apparatus and soon mastered it. Their output/results put some old timers to shame.
2. Those who had to work hard to master the practical task in hand and would eventually turn out a passable job/result.
3. Finally those had no natural feel for the subject in either a Theoretical or practical way. (and they were not stupid!).You just had to grit your teeth and help them in their endeavours.
I used to work with some older characters who used to bitch and moan about how we younger people, who did day release , "knew nothing" as they had learnt by "experience". In the end they stood still and the younger staff members having learnt both old and modern skills then moved on.
You have to respect experience, but you should never become fossilised in your approach to new things/ideas in life. I am now one of the old fogies, but I have thank goodness not ended up like some former colleques, sitting in a corner in "my chair" bitching about useless young people .
Back off my soapbox and back to trying to keep up with the new technology.
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
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Post by jackrae on Mar 26, 2015 14:54:20 GMT
No matter how long the journey or how far one's travelled, each and every corner holds out the prospect of something new to learn. Here endeth today's lesson  |
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Post by tedsmith on Mar 26, 2015 16:02:16 GMT
A LIFE TIME AND YOU WILL STILL NOT KNOW EVERYTHING I START IN 1960 AND I AM STILL LEARNING AT AGE 68 REGARDS TED SMITH
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Post by Doug on Mar 26, 2015 18:12:42 GMT
I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "Skills"
skills are taught then developed some people have a nateral bent to certain types of skills, afterall no matter how much training I have, i will never become a professional footballer of any merit. So some people can do the development bit very quickly indeed, some never get it ever! Thats what makes people people, they are all diferent if we were the same we would be called Robert Robot and the time to learn would be very measureable.
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jem
Elder Statesman
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Post by jem on Mar 26, 2015 18:30:32 GMT
There is always something new to learn in engineering, you might be able to file after a couple of weeks, but that is only one very very small cog in a huge machine, Every time I go into my workshop I learn something new. I have never worked in a machine shop professionally except for a short time at the start of my working life, and then I did all the welding jobs because that was what i particularly wanted to know about, and all the other chaps weren't interested in the welding jobs as there was no bonus! So I have had to learn to use lathes milling machines etc on my own, and it has certainly been a very interesting experience, but there is still an awful lot to learn thank goodness.
I find this forum immensely interesting and helpful I just wish there was more of it.
Jem
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Post by houstonceng on Mar 26, 2015 18:34:45 GMT
They say that Engineers are born, not made. Certainly, in my experience, I have come across trainees, like steamlaser, who despite struggling hard were never going to master a trade skill or understand the basic theory of something.
Similarly, artists and musicians seem to be born with the skill and just need it honing.
I have two sons. The elder, like me, picked up Engineering quickly (software in his case) and now earns his living at it, however, he still struggles at practical skills like cutting a straight line. The younger, struggles with maths, but is an good people person, can draw reasonably well and earns his living as sience educator and demonstrator. However, he has a great advantage over both his sibling and me, he can near pick up any musical instrument and play it reasonably competently in a short time. I tried to learn piano for years and finally gave up. My elder son stopped after trying a recorder.
My elder son, like me, is right handed. The younger is left handed.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 26, 2015 22:45:31 GMT
i still have a piano, (don young converted his in a rather brutal way into a workshop bench when at smithards lane, cowes, and his second piano i could tell a very funny story about!)
my brother did a full RN apprenticeship and ended up as CE, but at home he can just about use a spanner and his favourite tool is a hammer. i had all his HMS Daedelus apprentice pieces at one time till cut up and made into something else. the metal was far more useful!
i used to regrind all my dad's drills on a hand wound grinder when in my early teens. i still re-sharpen all my drills freehand.
one of the things i noticed when i started this lark at age 16 was that i could pick up a drill and tell what size it was within a thou. ive never heard of anyone else being able to do this!
my dear old Auntie Winnie long since departed could slice bread 'freehand' and into perfect thin slices. i reckon she would have been excellent with a hacksaw!
cheers,
julian
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 27, 2015 8:25:56 GMT
I think I've learnt all the engineering skills I'm every going to need.
HOWEVER!
Getting good at them, and perfecting those skills - well that's something completely different, and that I believe does take a lifetime!
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Mar 27, 2015 8:43:11 GMT
I think I've learnt all the engineering skills I'm every going to need. HOWEVER! Getting good at them, and perfecting those skills - well that's something completely different, and that I believe does take a lifetime! Ed has got it right. I can turn a piece of metal as well as the next man, learning that at 60 years old was easy. The difficult part is getting what is left to be of any use. Just like the chap who had a machine that did not work and hired a man to fix it. The 'man' looked at it for a while, took out his hammer and gave it a tap, the machine worked perfectly. He then presented his bill for £100. A hundred pounds for just one tap??? Yes, one pound for the tap and 99 pounds for knowing where to tap!! Cheers David |
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Post by steamlaser on Mar 27, 2015 9:19:36 GMT
[
My elder son, like me, is right handed. The younger is left handed.[/quote]
There is a school of thought that says left handed people see and think differently to right handed people. I recall that some research was done on this subject that gave interesting results. My son is left handed and does not fit the family standard model!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 16:51:26 GMT
[ My elder son, like me, is right handed. The younger is left handed. There is a school of thought that says left handed people see and think differently to right handed people. I recall that some research was done on this subject that gave interesting results. My son is left handed and does not fit the family standard model![/quote] funny as it's the opposite for me... I have a large family...5 children,,, they all have their own talents.. my youngest is left handed and he's just as good with his hands as the rest are and they can all give me a run for my money. I would call myself right handed although have been told that I am ambidextrous, i can certainly do things with my left nearly as well as with my right so perhaps i am....perhaps the difference is purely down to the fact that in general I use my right so it gets more practice. Another funny thing is that although I generally use my right hand I am most certainly left footed, I can't do the same with my right foot.....mind you some say that when kicking a ball I can't do anything with either..... Pete |
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Post by springcrocus on Mar 27, 2015 17:49:08 GMT
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous". Not mine, JS on ME, reflected glory only. Steve |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 27, 2015 19:54:16 GMT
I consider myself to be significantly skilled in computer programming and software development. At the age of 24 I had already made a cross referencing code disassembler -to which a Chess game was input-, a computer language compiler for a custom plant simulation language, a language sensitive editor for knitting machines, among others. Later on, I fully developed an implemented software for control and monitoring of a complex inorganic chemicals plant.
More recently, I developed the ScadaMobile and HMI Draw apps that are still available on the Apple App Store. The "HMI Draw" app has several hundred thousands lines of code and it is an app of great complexity. Moreover, I contributed to the open source community by delivering my "SWRevealViewController" component that is currently being used by more than two thousand iOS apps.
Computer software development is very challenging and nowadays it attracts a lot of young programmers. However, skills of all these "apprentices" are very short from ideal. Most of them are capable to produce visually appealing apps, but what is underneath is absolutely crap.
Software development require skills like abstract thinking, relational reasoning, and an analytical mind. These are skill that can be hardly learnt. Other demands are concentration capacity, focus, and strong short memory retention capabilities. You also need to adapt to technology changes at a very fast rate. For example Apple is releasing between 3,000 and 50,000 new APIs (Application Program Interfaces) every single year, and deprecating 100 or so. On June last year Apple released a completely new computer language named "Swift" which follows a completely different paradigm.
One reason why new programmers are crap is because they have completely missed the computer software evolution (revolution?) that happened in the last two decades. They tend to just use and understand high level (modern) APIs, but never use lower lever (older) ones that can be a lot faster and convenient for a particular task. The same happens with the currently available computer languages. Many modern computer languages (Python, Swift) simply do not incorporate sensible means to perform low level memory operations. Even the once ubiquitous "C" language is now a hated one because of the opposite.
So how does it compare with Model Engineering? Well, "C" and direct low level memory operations is "filling", "drilling" and "sawing". Modern computer languages is "CNC", "Laser Cut" and "3D Printing".
Because of my life long experience with computer software development I am for "C" in computer languages (old stuff). But I am for "CNC" and "Laser Cut" for model Engineering (new stuff). Others with life long experience with model engineering will be for "filling" and "drilling", for exactly the same reasons I am for "C".
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