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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 13:39:47 GMT
About 25 years ago a King hauling a railtour lost adhesion just as it left Landore loop and started to climb Cockett bank . Most of the train was still on the loop with just the engine on the bank proper .There is a footbridge just at this location and we were all there to see the engine pass by .
Many attempts were made to restart the train but with no sucess . There was a great deal of severe wheel slip on the non moving engine - which was cause for a complaint about track damage later .
I remember being seriously concerned about the management of the engine and particularly about the boiler pressure . All through this mishap the blower was hard on , there was an enormous fire and the safety valves were blowing off continuously .
Blowing off doesn't adequately describe what I saw that day - all the time the engine was static the blowing off got more and more violent . In the end the safety valves started to screach - and that meant they were at or very near their maximum release rate .
Eventually - and fortunately - some wiser head on the footplate took charge of the engine . He set the train back a long way and then set off forwards again under proper control .
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Post by joanlluch on May 22, 2015 14:16:08 GMT
I would have enjoyed being there. (Despite the danger)
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 14:56:47 GMT
These are not the actual incident but same location : www.britishrailways.tv/train-videos/2013-03/6024-king-edward-i-slips-to-a-stand-on-cockett-bank/www.britishrailways.tv/train-videos/2013-03/cockett-bank-tries-to-defeat-6024-king-edward-i-againand-fails!!!/ Photographer is on/near bridge in first video . Bridge is in far field in second video (out of sight) . Landore loop and Cockett bank are truly awful locations to run an engine ! The track layout at Landore is a triangle with the main line Paddiington to West Wales going direct on one triangle section and Swansea station is on a short branch connected by the other two triangle sections to the main line . On the direct run an engine can approach Cockett bank with reasonable initial speed which helps a lot . On the day I was talking about the train started from Swansea station and had to be dragged at very slow speed around the very tight and climbing connecting loop to arrive at Cockett bank at not much more than walking pace . The deadweight and friction drag of a train still on the loop as an engine starts on the bank is enormous . Many steam engine types have been well tested by Cockett bank - some have done well , some have struggled and some have failed . Years later I saw Tornado take essentially the same train up the bank - it just sailed up at almost constant speed and without apparent effort - even the engine note did not change much . Castles and Halls of course once took service trains up the bank everyday - though these were usually less coaches than the railtour trains . Heavier trains were always banked or much more rarely doubleheaded . |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:18:29 GMT
The link maker can't seem to handle the !!!/ on second link .
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 22:34:20 GMT
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Post by joanlluch on May 23, 2015 6:24:56 GMT
Hi Michael, thanks for pointing us to these videos. So what is what makes the difference?. Is it the right operation of the regulator and valve gear what makes it?
I can imagine that what causes a loco to slip is too much instantaneous torque applied to the wheels, as opposed to a sustained torque (like an electric loco, to say). So maybe the driver needs to keep the regulator just slightly open with the loco in full gear in order to climb the hill, despite this would claim for poor efficiency. Also, does the extremely black smoke have anything to do with a particular operation of the loco?
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,719
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Post by mbrown on May 23, 2015 7:58:55 GMT
All sorts of factors contribute to slipping. Greasy rails, of course, are the most obvious - and sometimes there's not much you can do about it. In the days when we only had steam brakes on the Talyllyn locos (i.e. no continuous brakes) I once came down into Brynglas loop where the rails are overhung with trees and, even at walking pace, the wheels picked up and we slid right through the bottom points - the rails were covered in tree sap and then it had rained... Other factors include the gradient and weight of train, of course, but also the curvature of the track since that will create a lot of flange friction. But a heavy hand on the regulator is, as suggested by the anecdote, a major factor too. The boiler pressure makes little difference - the critical factor is the amount of power being applied to the wheels and that is a matter of steam chest pressure controlled by the regulator. On the other hand, some regulators (not GWR ones!) are pretty insensitive and can be all-or-nothing. Some years ago, the shaft of the pull-out regulator on "Dolgoch" was worn in the gland and so as soon as you began to open it, steam pressure took up all the slack in the linkage and opened it wide - every driver started with a massive slip at Wharf station, where the rails can be greasy. If you slip while on the move, you can sometimes close the regulator until the slip stops and then open it gently before the momentum has died out - if you can keep the train moving, you have a chance, but if you stop, getting going again from rest on a slippery rail, with a heavy train and on a gradient and/or curve can be very tricky.
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on May 23, 2015 10:45:08 GMT
The link maker can't seem to handle the !!!/ on second link . Try Here |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 12:56:06 GMT
Hi Michael, thanks for pointing us to these videos. So what is what makes the difference?. Is it the right operation of the regulator and valve gear what makes it? I can imagine that what causes a loco to slip is too much instantaneous torque applied to the wheels, as opposed to a sustained torque (like an electric loco, to say). So maybe the driver needs to keep the regulator just slightly open with the loco in full gear in order to climb the hill, despite this would claim for poor efficiency. Also, does the extremely black smoke have anything to do with a particular operation of the loco? I am fortunate to have known a Landore top link driver by the name of Dave Miller - in bits and pieces he told me a lot about how engines worked and how they were driven . The amount of detail knowledge that he and the other regular steam engine drivers knew not just theoretically but which they actually applied day to day was astonishing . Have to be a bit at a time - ask questions if you want : This applies to two cylinder engines like Halls and Counties and four cylinder engines where cylinders are in pairs like Castles and Kings : (1) There are ideal and non ideal positions of the cranks for starting trains . Best is nominally where both cranks are about 45 deg away from any dead centre . Worst is nominally where one crank is at 90 deg away from dead centre and and the other crank is on dead centre .There is variation around these figures for specific engine designs - can be 10 to 15 deg different . Drivers always tried to back engine on to train and stop so as to be somewhere near ideal starting configuration - not always possible in practice of course . (2) Depending on where the cranks happen to be there are different settings of valve gear and regulator needed to get best start . (3) As well as ideal crank position for normal starting where there is good adhesion there are ideal crank positions for starting when wheel slip is a problem . This is because the natural angling of the connecting rods is lifting the engine up and down and periodically changing the adhesive weight on the driving wheels . Ideal position of cranks is where maximum load is put on drivers during initial stroke . I'll have to work that one out . Where possible drivers would set back or do a controlled slip to put cranks in best position for a restart . (4) Again depending on where cranks happen to be there are different settings for valve gear and regulator needed to get best start . (5) Under slipping conditions it was sometimes advantageous to leave the drain cocks open - this had the effect of 'softening' the start of the working strokes and hence reducing possibility of snatch at the wheels . (6) Severe slipping of a non moving engine polishes wheels and both polishes and indents railhead . Wherever possible driver set back engine onto an undamaged section of track to get maximum grip . In severe cases of slipping fireman would also get down and hand sprinkle sand behind and in front of wheels during setting back . (7) When a train was expected to climb a severe gradient fireman would prepare the fire very early on - maybe start half an hour before - certainly 15 minutes . When gradient was arrived at fire would be proper depth and shape and all burning - no black coal . This action made the requirement for adding new coal during climb a little less onerous and helped a lot with clean burning and reducing smoke . (8) Where an engine which has been properly prepared is still discharging unburnt coal and black smoke this usually means that the engine is overloaded and has to be worked excessively hard . (9) On the engine stall I mentioned at start of this thread the driver was apparently inexperienced . Probably too the train was very heavy for a King on such a severe gradient but more important perhaps too long - too many carriages . The Landore loop turns through nearly 135 degrees in just a couple of train lengths and the drag due to gradient and curvature combined would have been severe . (10) Castles on service trains up Cockett bank were limited to 8 coaches unassisted - though they sometimes took a few more if nescessary . Dave Miller always said though that taking more that the 8 coaches up the bank on a cold and wet winters night was a severe trial for both engine and crew . (11) Never found any good explanation of why it is but Castles have always performed better than Kings with railtours going up Cockett bank . |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:03:44 GMT
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Post by joanlluch on May 24, 2015 7:48:12 GMT
Hi Michael, thanks for that. Never thought that driving a steam loco proficiently went that far as to having to take into account the actual crank angle. It's amazing. That sort of thing is difficult to imagine from the current times
In my club there is a 80+ y.o. guy who drove long distance passenger express steam trains for about 20 years. He once explained me that he was paid an extra compensation for low fuel consumption while still arriving on time. So his main concern while driving steam locos was fuel efficiency and efficient driving. In Spain, the late standard gauge steam locos used heavy oil instead of coal as combustible, as there's no good quality coal available in the country. Since oil had to be imported from overseas (possibly from Venezuela or USA (no oil either in Spain)) the cost was high. That's also a reason why steam was discontinued very early and replaced by electric traction as soon as this technology became reliable. Diesels were not even considered for the same reason (not used now either) and electricity was produced out of (what is called now) renewable sources. The first replacement of steam by electricity happened in 1911 in the "Sarria" line going from Barcelona to Terrassa. Full electrification was virtually completed by 1968.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 8:56:35 GMT
Hi Joan ,
Top link drivers on the UK railways served a very long apprenticeship - rarely less than 15 years and often up to 25 years . Started as engine cleaners , then firemen , then low grade drivers and then finally - if they were very lucky - main line express passenger drivers .
In all that learning period they encountered all sorts of engines , trains , tracks , weather , breakdowns and running problems and by the time they became drivers they could usually deal with any situation that arose .
Express passenger drivers always had the prestige but we should not forget the heavy goods train drivers - they were just as skilled .
Most drivers could keep good time on trains but just a few could time their trains to perfection . The prestige trains into Paddington would sometimes come to a dead stop at the correct distance from the buffers exactly on time - the hand on the station clock clicked into position at the same time as the engine stopped .
Some drivers could also manouvre light engines with remarkable sensitivity - certainly they could move them just 1 inch stopped to stopped . There is a story that an old timer GWR driver had a party trick were he would hang his pocket watch over the buffer stops on one of the shed roads and then bring his engine buffers up to touch the watch but not break it .
I keep mentioning Castles and Kings - perhaps you are not familiar with them :
Some earlier engines called Stars then the Castles and the Kings were mechanically similar 4 cyinder engines built by the Great Western Railway at different times with increasing weight and power . They had four cylinders with piston valves driven by Walschaerts valve gear . Two cylinders outside and two inside with two sets of valve gear inside driving inside cylinder valves directly and ouside cylinder valves indirectly via a rocker arm . They were 4-6-0 configuration tender engines with taper boilers and Belpaire fireboxes .
MichaelW
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Post by joanlluch on May 24, 2015 17:28:21 GMT
Hi Michael,
Well, the assertion "the hand on the station clock clicked into position at the same time as the engine stopped" may have happened a couple of times, but it is a bit bold statement imo because even today this is only achieved with driverless trains which take advantage of train clocks fully synced through internet services or radio stations. During the steam times It's hard to me to imagine this happening at every stop, not only because of the trains but because the clocks were all mechanical and isolated from each other, including the on board clock available to the driver, LOL. But of course as a goal for the drivers, that would be nice to achieve for their own satisfaction.
About the man I talked about, to be honest I do not know for how long he acted as an apprentice/fireman or as a driver, because if you make some maths this must have happened when he was really young. However, I am pretty sure that at least during the last years of his steam career he was the driver. Also, I suppose heavy oil fuelled locomotives like the ones he drove did require different skills than coal fired ones. Eventually, the last steam services to be discontinued were long distance heavy freight trains, so this is what he drove before leaving the job (as his interest in driving electric locos was nil ! ).
As an interesting anecdote, in order to give better service and make longer runs between stops, he apparently had occasionally to climb the locomotive frames to grease axle bearings when they ran too hot, without stoping the loco, and even putting his life in danger (according to him), so he could arrive on time. But I can't really imagine how this could have been.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 19:00:16 GMT
Railway clocks in signal boxes and in the traffic control offices at major stations were always accurately synchronised during company ownership days . The GWR had members of staff issued with special watches set to a master clock who travelled the whole railway system frequently checking and setting the clocks .
This practice continued right into early BR days . Only superceded when first electronic time signals and then full electronic time keeping was introduced .
Accurate time keeping was paramount when running the once very busy railways with many daily passenger and goods trains passing along main lines and often leaving and joining other main and branch lines at complex junctions .
There is a way of displaying timetable information in graphical form that was used on most railways which showed actual times for trains being at critical locations and the margin of time error which could be tolerated before some corrective action was needed .
The margins for error were typically just two to four minutes on the busier parts of the system .
When corrective action was needed there was a strict code of priorities for different classes of train .
Royal trains , express passenger , perishables , munitions and breakdown trains had highest priority .
Local goods , stopping goods and weedkiller trains had lowest priority .
Several classes in between and a few amusing anamolies - the famous one is that racing pigeon trains had higher priority than stopping passenger trains .
Generally when there was a conflict for use of track the higher priority trains were sent through and lower priority trains were shunted off to await a quieter time when they could continue their journeys . It was not uncommon for lowly coal trains to be shunted off several times in one journey .
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on May 25, 2015 9:23:09 GMT
going back to michael's second post on 22nd may, i was on the train in the first clip. Tommy Rees of Newport was driving the King.
on Cockett bank on the direct line the train has to cross over from the 'up' to the 'down' line on a curve. the loco took the two sets of points ok, but then came the drag of the coaches over the points (which is the 'groan groan' noise you can hear in the clip) which slowed the train till it stalled and stopped (not shown in the clip). the sanders in driving wind and heavy rain werent of much use. Tommy got the train moving again from a stand, and it was the most superb example of enginemanship ive ever experienced. it was quite thrilling! when we arrived at Carmarthen i had a quick word with Tommy and congratulated him, as did many others.
Tommy was by then a senior freight driver close to retirement for DRB ex EWS, but in 1965 was a young fireman at Rhymney depot firing 56XX tanks etc up and down The Valleys network on freight and passenger turns. Cardiff ceased to export coal in 1963.
cheers,
julian
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 10:56:58 GMT
Hi Julian ,
Always interesting to hear first hand accounts .
It's a pity that the actual events that I saw many years earlier were not recorded .
Kings never seem to be entirely happy in South Wales - perhaps that is why they were apparently banned west of Cardiff in service days .
Trains going from Neath to Lanelli or vice versa via Swansea\Landore have to climb two banks and descend two banks - all steep and with lots of curves . In the days before the much easier Swansea District avoiding line was built heavy - and usually unfitted - goods trains had to use this route and we can only wonder at the skills of engine crews of the past working these trains safely every day and in all conditions .
Regards ,
Michaelw
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on May 25, 2015 11:17:01 GMT
I recall from when I was very small, the sound of some goods engines crawling up some of the gradients in South Wales, while I was being driven to visit my Grandmother in Ebbw Vale.
I can't describe the noise very well and I have never heard it since. May have been one massive CHUFF followed by lots of small ones! Never saw the locos as I was in the car, but the noise was striking.
Any ideas what I was listening to?
Incidentally my twice daily dog walks use former colliery lines around Aberdare. Its lovely to imagine the activity in years gone by and the remains of a Brunel viaduct are wonderful to behold.
Pete.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 11:50:58 GMT
I recall from when I was very small, the sound of some goods engines crawling up some of the gradients in South Wales, while I was being driven to visit my Grandmother in Ebbw Vale. I can't describe the noise very well and I have never heard it since. May have been one massive CHUFF followed by lots of small ones! Never saw the locos as I was in the car, but the noise was striking. Any ideas what I was listening to? Incidentally my twice daily dog walks use former colliery lines around Aberdare. Its lovely to imagine the activity in years gone by and the remains of a Brunel viaduct are wonderful to behold. Pete. Well I can only conjecture but as you are about same age as me your trips would have been late 1950's early 1960's . Getting iron ore up the gradients to the works at Ebbw vale required lots of engine power just to pull a few wagons . In later days 9F's were commonly used - but could have been anything . There are pictures surviving of just ten loaded gondola cars having to be hauled by two 42's - one at the back and one at the front - and judging from the smoke they were struggling . Regards , MichaelW |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 12:37:51 GMT
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