Electric Boiler Feed Water Pumps

[arch1947]

Hi All, There is currently a plan to fit a 12V high pressure boiler feed water pump to the clubs steamer. The main reason is that most drivers cannot manage the injectors hence water level. On the face of it an electric pump seems a good idea but I am keen to know the experience of others in the form of brands to avoid, benefits, pitfalls and any other information.
Thanks, Arch

[jackrae]

I have no experience but from an engineering perspective, generating somewhere in the order of 150 to 200 psi suggests a piston type pump will be required. This simplifies construction considerable since you could use current designs of axle driven pumps and merely replace the "axle" by a geared down DC motor drive of the "parvalux" or equivalent design. something like shown here www.parvalux.com/products/dc-motors-and-geared-motors/dc-brushed-shunt-wound-geared-motor.

Edit: I tend to agree with Albert. If a driver cannot use the extant boiler feed systems to maintain the safe operation of the boiler he/she shouldn't be in charge of the locomotive. Or the club's driver training squad needs to improve their training techniques.

[albert]

Hello,
I made one years ago using a car wind screen motor and a plunger pump, it worked very well.
As for the club engine if any one can not put an injector on, then they keep off the engine???

Albert

[doubletop]

Arch

A number of us use them over here. They are very useful on a crowded public running day and you get stuck behind others. It's quite comfortaing to have the 'panic button' available, just in case. The best pumps are these from pumptec www.pumptec.com/pumps.html they aren't cheap but do a good job. They are ram piston pumps so are less prone to running at a lower throughput as the boiler pressure rises.

However soem of us are using these from China, available on Aliababa www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Singflo-160psi-12v-dc-high-pressure_60398904084.html?spm=a2700.7906341.35.1.ZCABgc&s=p

They are diaphram pumps 160psi and 5.5ltr/min on free flow. I tested mine pumping through my safety valve set at 100psi and got about 2ltr/min which is 70oz so better than an injector. 9A though so you need a half decent SLA battery and occasional use only.

We are also using 12v electric vacuum pumps as emergency braking systems. They work well.

Pete

[smallbrother]

This gentleman, Colin Gross, fitted them to his Feldbahn - www.gentoosjournals.co.uk/FELDBAHN/FB_Modifications/FB_Functional/FB_Electric_Pumps.html

He is very helpful and would I am sure be happy to discuss what he did if you contact him.

Pete.

[arch1947]

G'Day Folks, Very interesting comments and info. I tend toward the "if you can't drive an injector, don't drive" but I am in the minority. I think the point that say if you have an electric pump, use it more as back up than main source. The pump proposed is very similar to the one both Petes' used/proposed.
We'll see what happens and thanks for your advice.
Regards,
Arch

[jma1009]

Hi Arch,

Some club locos in some clubs get neglected and poorly maintained.

If there are problems with the injectors and ancillaries on your club locos then I would suggest that sorting out these problems would be a far better use of club resources.

Anyone driving a loco ought to be taught properly how to operate and use an injector as a prerequisite. The first loco I drove in miniature had no hand pump or axplepump, but 2 injectors. It is a basic fundamental of 'passing out' of any miniature loco driver of most clubs how to operate an injector.

Resort to electrical pumps is anathema to me, and previous posters.

Sort out the injector problem and why they dont work properly on your club locos first! And train up properly how they need to be operated!

Cheers,
Julian

[doubletop]

Julian and others

I don't disagree with your sentiments regarding getting injectors working properly. I've gone up the learning curve, have the books and have read the very informative threads on the subject. Now that I've got them working, one better than the other, I use mine all the time.

From time to time I let others drive my loco and however experienced they are I don't want them to have a problem with the injectors, fall off the operating curve when low on water and risk ending up with a ruined boiler. Hence the 'panic button' for my own piece of mind more than anything else.


Pete

[manofkent]

When my (grown up) daughters decided to learn to drive my loco I built an electric pump fearing they would need something "easy" while learning.
It was actually an electric motor moving the tender hand pump through a crank.
Anyway, it never got used in anger. Much to my joy They preferred to use the axle pump and manual hand pump if needed.
It is great for filling up the boiler from empty before steaming though.

John

[mutley]

If a minority of people/clubs start to fit electric pumps and drivers aren't trained to use injectors your potentially heading for disaster when they get offered a drive of a 'foreign' engine. Teach people to use the correct tools. Another thought, who's responsible for making sure the battery is charged and fit for purpose?

[mbrown]

My aim is always to make operating my miniature locos as close as possible to operating the prototype in full size (although I have never yet had the confidence to omit the hand pump as back up). So the idea of using an electric pump on the run is anathema.

But I have just made up a neat electric gadget, based on a windscreen washer centrifugal pump, which fills the boiler from cold far faster than endless hand pumping. Just connect it to a clack, drop the feed pipe into the watering can and switch on. It just gives nice time to oil round before the water gets to the top of the gauge glass. Simples!

Malcolm

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2017 14:29:31 GMT mbrown said:

My aim is always to make operating my miniature locos as close as possible to operating the prototype in full size (although I have never yet had the confidence to omit the hand pump as back up). So the idea of using an electric pump on the run is anathema.

But I have just made up a neat electric gadget, based on a windscreen washer centrifugal pump, which fills the boiler from cold far faster than endless hand pumping. Just connect it to a clack, drop the feed pipe into the watering can and switch on. It just gives nice time to oil round before the water gets to the top of the gauge glass. Simples!

Malcolm

Hi Malcolm

I have plans to do the same thing although perhaps taking it a step further..the plan is to have an electric pump connected to a clack for both filling the boiler in the first place ( I don't fancy removing domes or safety valves) but also in place of a hand pump should both injectors fail. highly unlikely that they would but nice to have an easy backup. If I make my planned driving trolly in such a way as to hold a 12 volt car battery in the rear it would also help to stop the trolly tipping when reaching forward. Nothing drawn up yet but the seeds of thought have been sewn.....a small electric pump connected to the battery, a line ready to be connected to the clack(probably inline with another feed) and a feed that can be dropped into the tender filling tube, this can all be held in a small box on the trolly only being seen when needed.

Early days yet but something to think about over the next few years...

Pete

[Lisa]

I tend to follow with the opinion against fitting an electric pump; someone who can't open two valves to operate an injector probably shouldn't be trusted with the safe operation of a pressure vessel without supervision. As Julian says, fixing any existing issues, and teaching people to use what's there, would likely be a better use of time and money than adding something new, and then hoping the battery gets charged.
On the other hand, "your loco, your rules."
If you do want to add a pump, how about an axle pump? Or a crosshead pump? Or a steam-driven pump on the running boards? Or just give them a handpump and watch everyone suddenly learn to use an injector once their arms are sore.

On the matter of filling boilers for lighting up, rather than pumping in an unknown amount of water each time, I've always used a suitable size of plastic bottle (or several, for larger boilers) with a known amount of water (with treatment if you use it) which will fill the boiler to 2/3 on the glass. The boiler is filled with this from a suitably positioned plug (I've seen others remove safety valves for this purpose, but would rather not), top of the dome works well in many cases. Aside from ensuring the boiler is treated, even when the tender/tanks are filled from an untreated source, it also becomes plainly obvious if it needs a wash out, or some other issue is affecting the volume and/or flow of water in the boiler.

[barlowworks]

Coming at this from a slightly different angle, we in Sheffield are blessed with wonderfully soft water and as far as I know none of the members at our club use water treatment. There are lots of horror stories of boilers being covered in lime scale after a short period so when I finally get my loco on the rails and visit other clubs I have been considering taking my own water supply and using one of those caravan pumps dropped into a suitable water bottle. It should run on 12 volts so be easy enough to connect up. I can fill up the boiler at the start and top up the tender as I go, all at the flick of a switch. Possibly use the same battery for the steam raising blower all in one package.

Just a thought, non of this exists, it's all in my head at the moment.

Mike

[smallbrother]

I think it is a matter of choice and what the owner/driver wants. Colin Gross who fitted them on his Feldbahn is a very capable model engineer and comes up with plenty of innovative ways to achieve what he wants. I am sure he is more than capable of sorting out injectors but preferred to find a solution of his own and I can't see anything wrong with that!

It is pure luck in my case but the solution to any injector problems I have had is to fit one made by Len Steel.

Pete.

[jma1009]

I think Pete above has the measure of the problem ie fit injectors that are well proven and work under all conditions, even if there is a long wait and extra cost.

I have no connection with Paul Pavier or Paviersteam, but he markets the Len Steel injectors which Len took over from Gordon Chiverton shortly before Gordon's death. It is generally regarded that Gordon Chiverton made the best miniature loco injectors in quite a range of sizes with excellent performance.

Those marketed by Paviersteam made by Len Steel are the only injectors I will recommend, usual disclaimer.

As for how you fill the boiler from cold with water is quite another matter, and quite seperate to injector function and operation.

I have a distinct adversion to using a hand pump for this purpose, but others are happy to 'wank' away at a handpump for this purpose for quite awhile.

Cheers,
Julian

[runner42]

This debate appears to be somewhat polarised; on the one side those that consider an electric pump to be a last resort back up in the event of failure of one the designed in boiler feed systems and those purist that says if you can't manage an injector then you shouldn't being driving the locomotive. Well I am taking the opportunity to fit an electric pump to my trolley because the slight additional costs outweighs the danger of having the water level drop below the firebox crown and placing a question mark on the integrity of the boiler. Some time ago I reported that my injector I purchased from an ME Supplier wasn't working, so the two operating systems are the axle driven pump and the emergency pump in the tender. The advice was to fit the injector to another locomotive, this however cannot be done because the design is such that the captive nuts for the cones are silver soldered to the pipework for the steam inlet and water outlet, or to fit another injector.

An electric pump www.ebay.com.au/itm/Micro-Car-12V-DC-5L-min-45W-Diaphragm-High-Pressure-Water-Pump-Automatic-Switch-/291705156140 plus battery www.jaycar.com.au/12v-9ah-sla-battery/p/SB2487 is less than the cost of another injector that if purchased may not work for me.

Brian 

[Cro]

Feb 28, 2017 23:37:27 GMT jma1009 said:

I have no connection with Paul Pavier or Paviersteam, but he markets the Len Steel injectors which Len took over from Gordon Chiverton shortly before Gordon's death.

Just to make a small point here. Len didn't "take over" from Gordon but he does make injectors to the design of Chiverton. As far as I am aware from various sources (including Gordons Daughter) and speaking with Len himself I got the same impression Gordon never offically gave him the designs and rights to the injectors.

Anyway, I agree with said above but I like to keep as close to prototype as possible so I would prefer to see Injectors if possible but I don't mind a good axlepump especially on smaller locos.

Adam

[arch1947]

G'Day, Brian, correct, a very polarised debate and I still think that a steam locomotive should remain a steam locomotive. I fear at our club that the next step will be to install a Honda 4 stroke to save coal. For those who do want to use an electric pump, look at the pump curve before you choose. A pump may be advertised as delivering 5l/min but probably at zero head and 160 psi (sorry 'bout the mixed units)but at zero flow, dead headed. It is important to see how the pump works over a range of conditions.
Cheers,
Arch

[jma1009]

Hi Brian,

If your commercial injector doesnt work ok then send it to me and I will do my best to examine it and rectify it.

No need to resort to electrical pump monstrosities!

Cheers,
Julian