monkeyhero97
Part of the e-furniture
Got a 7 1/4" Stafford and 2 1/2" WD 2-10-0, building Ayesha and thinking about Q1.
Posts: 423
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Post by monkeyhero97 on Mar 15, 2017 10:53:50 GMT
Hello Everyone!
Quick question...does anyone happen to have any drawings for butterfly doors, either steam-operated or not? One from a bullied would be just perfect.I don't quite understand how they work and I'm trying to design a pair for a full-size loco.
Cheers
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Post by Cro on Mar 15, 2017 11:30:42 GMT
I have some drawings for the bullied. I am currently working on producing a 7 1/4" version and have modelled most of the mounting frame, drop me a line if you want to chat, I will try find a photo of what I have so far. Essentially both doors have gear teeth on the top and one drives the other, simple as that really. I think Phil has done a pair for an SAR loco but I am not sure how much the drawings overlap to the bullied style. Sadly I have very few drawings and not one of the actual doors so they will take some thinking to get all of the dimensions I need from what I currently have.
Adam
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Post by Cro on Mar 15, 2017 13:07:21 GMT
This is as far as I have got so far. Adam
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monkeyhero97
Part of the e-furniture
Got a 7 1/4" Stafford and 2 1/2" WD 2-10-0, building Ayesha and thinking about Q1.
Posts: 423
|
Post by monkeyhero97 on Mar 15, 2017 19:16:01 GMT
Hi Adam Thanks for your reply. To be honest, I'm not really that fussed whether it's a bullied design or not. I just simply like the look and feel of those type of doors. Everything I hope will be fabricated and gas-axed into shape. I haven't thought about how I'd do the gears. One thing I am quite insistent on though, is that the doors can be operated from both the driver's side and the fireman's side. That way, the driver can operate the doors and limit the amount of time air can get in. I guess I just put handles on either door. To hold them open constantly, I presume the handle just rests on a latch? Is this correct? Thanks for the photo..If there are any more I'd love to see them. Cheers Marc
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,497
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Post by pault on Mar 15, 2017 21:06:35 GMT
With steam operated doors they were operated by a plunger on the floor, as you turn towards the doors you put your foot on the plunger and the doors open. As you turn away you lift your foot and they close. The action is actually quite violent. The manual handle can be used and latched to hold the doors open
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monkeyhero97
Part of the e-furniture
Got a 7 1/4" Stafford and 2 1/2" WD 2-10-0, building Ayesha and thinking about Q1.
Posts: 423
|
Post by monkeyhero97 on Mar 15, 2017 22:02:02 GMT
Hi Yes indeed, but fabricating steam-operated doors or air-operated doors for that matter would be complex and ludicrously expensive. Having said that....if I could find plans for them...I would study the proposition to see how feseable it is. Cheers
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 15, 2017 22:55:56 GMT
Hi Marc,
I rather like the butterfly doors. As pault says they were treadle operated, and were ergonomic for the poor fireman shovelling tons of coal into a Bulleid Pacific firebox that was greedy of coal due to the poor Le Maitre draughting as applied by Bulleid.
The NRM has a full set of drawings for the Bullied SR Merchant Navy Pacifics, and many details of same are in various books showing the butterfly door details.
It was a USA design originally I believe, and much used overseas.
Think of the weights involved in fullsize on the firehole doors and those small gears. The treadle cannot be operated manually. Hence the steam or air operation via the treadle plate.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by Ben on Mar 16, 2017 5:49:17 GMT
One thing I am quite insistent on though, is that the doors can be operated from both the driver's side and the fireman's side. That way, the driver can operate the doors and limit the amount of time air can get in. Don't worry too much about the letting too much air in thing, all butterfly doors I have seen (Bulleid and ones in Poland) all have holes cast into them that let secondary air through when shut anyway. Fires cannot efficiently burn without secondary air. Ben
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,497
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Post by pault on Mar 16, 2017 6:16:41 GMT
Hi Yes indeed, but fabricating steam-operated doors or air-operated doors for that matter would be complex and ludicrously expensive. Having said that....if I could find plans for them...I would study the proposition to see how feseable it is. Cheers I would suggest it is not that big a problem, you need sorts of some sort of doors regardless of how they operate. The power operated ones simply require a cylinder and valve. If air operated these things are available at modest cost off the shelf
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Post by manofkent on Mar 16, 2017 8:09:30 GMT
Hi Marc, I rather like the butterfly doors. As pault says they were treadle operated, and were ergonomic for the poor fireman shovelling tons of coal into a Bulleid Pacific firebox that was greedy of coal due to the poor Le Maitre draughting as applied by Bulleid. The NRM has a full set of drawings for the Bullied SR Merchant Navy Pacifics, and many details of same are in various books showing the butterfly door details. It was a USA design originally I believe, and much used overseas. Think of the weights involved in fullsize on the firehole doors and those small gears. The treadle cannot be operated manually. Hence the steam or air operation via the treadle plate. Cheers, Julian My Dad was a fireman and driver at Stuart's Lane in the days of steam. He described firing the Bullied Pacifics as "shovelling coal going downhill" - presumably due to the poor draughting Julian refers to. nothing really to do with butterfly doors but interesting anyway. John
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monkeyhero97
Part of the e-furniture
Got a 7 1/4" Stafford and 2 1/2" WD 2-10-0, building Ayesha and thinking about Q1.
Posts: 423
|
Post by monkeyhero97 on Mar 16, 2017 9:07:02 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. Trust me, with the locomotive in question, the air will be a massive problem operating at 25 with a decent load. Even if its not so much for performance, but for the thermal shocks on the firebox tubeplate. Basically, owners these days will do anything and everything to prevent wear and tear on the boilers. Air operated would be very feasible on this loco, so off the shelf sounds pretty good. I still don't get how the steam-operated part works. I've got the manual part with the gears and the handle. Julian regarding the treadle....a treadle I think is only every used on steam/air operated ones. And regardless of that, they all pretty much have handles I think on them.
Cheers Marc
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monkeyhero97
Part of the e-furniture
Got a 7 1/4" Stafford and 2 1/2" WD 2-10-0, building Ayesha and thinking about Q1.
Posts: 423
|
Post by monkeyhero97 on Mar 16, 2017 9:34:12 GMT
Just hit gold. Rather than putting butterfly firehole doors in google, I put butterfly firedoors and got a whole lists of items and photos. Funny how one word changes so much. I've just seen my franlin railway supply co drawings for their butterfly patent. Hopefully that is all I need. Thanks for your help. If you'd like to follow the overhaul of this loco, let me know and I can post the facebook link. Cheers Marc
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,497
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Post by pault on Mar 16, 2017 10:08:19 GMT
They were also known as Ajax doors
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