7.25 inch Gauge "Terriers"

[terrier060]

Thanks Julian. That's good news. I'd hope you would approve. Now for the big one!

[Roger]

Superb result Ed, well worth the persistence!

[peteh]

Nov 18, 2018 21:35:10 GMT David said:

You're getting some amazing results Ed. You must be a bit over it by now but if you need to do anything similar hopefully you'll remember all the parameters!

I'm guessing the hard engraving brass cuts more cleanly rather than tearing. I've looked for some down here but can't find any except full sheets from an importer who doesn't give prices on line. Postage of 300mm sheets from the UK just isn't worth it.

Have you a water jet cutter near you - I work for one in perth and we are often cutting blank squares/rectangles of brass and other material for further manufacture. It is not a cheap process however and most would have a minimum charge. Could still work out cheaper than UK supply however.

[David]

There is at least one in Orange and you're right about the charges. I'm still a few thousand in the hole from an ill-conceived adventure getting some NSW 50 class frames water-jet cut and then not being able to sell them.

We also have a number of engraving shops around who must have some.

[terrier060]

Hi Dave - yes engravers should have some - a chap near me says he has plenty of off-cuts. Thanks Roger - I make it 12 or 13 I have made now and am just about happy with them. Engraving is a very tricky operation because the stock has to be absolutely flat (within half thou) and the depth of cut makes a huge difference so once one is happy with depth the tool cannot be taken out of the collet. These I think are now passable and I have had good noises from Julian! I will now have a go at the larger Number plates, but being more visible require even more care.

Incidentally although I have read that the work plates had a blue background, the ones on Boxhill ate Improved Engine Green!  Perhaps Julian can enlighten me?

Finished Work Plates by ed cloutman, on Flickr

[Roger]

Superb work Ed, what a great result!

[terrier060]

Thanks Roger - still not happy as 'works' should be more central so have redone them!

[David]

They're excellent! Persistence has certainly paid off here.

[jma1009]

Hi Ed,

I would be very happy with your works plates if I had bought them - which I did in my case.

They are relatively small in 7.25"g and very small in 5"g. Very few people these days know the details of the original locos, and one has to draw a line somewhere and move on.

By contrast, the number plates are very prominent being much larger and with a different font that is highly individual and (in my view) quite a bizarre font.

Thankfully, in respect of the numberplates we have clear photographic evidence, and quite a few original plates survive in various collections.

Around 1972, I sat with my Grandpa and my younger brother to eat our packed lunches against Boxhill when at the Clapham Museum. The black and white pics I have sent you of Boxhill at Clapham do not support your recollection of IEG being used for the infill on the plates. Knowing J N Maskelyne's involvement in the restoration of Boxhill in 1946/7 I do not think this error could have occurred and certainly your own recollection is against all the evidence (which is compelling/overwhelming) that no IEG was used on the plates at all.

Cheers,

Julian

[Jim Scott]

Nov 21, 2018 18:02:39 GMT terrier060 said:

............... Engraving is a very tricky operation because the stock has to be absolutely flat (within half thou) and the depth of cut makes a huge difference so once one is happy with depth the tool cannot be taken out of the collet.      ................I will now have a go at the larger Number plates, but being more visible require even more care.               ................Incidentally although I have read that the work plates had a blue background, the ones on Boxhill ate Improved Engine Green!

Hi Ed

You should be very pleased with your final result.

Glad you were able to confirm that engraving brass was worth the effort. My Bro-in-Law reckoned that the burrs raised by the tool were greatly reduced and that machining in general was much sweeter. Also, when the line width is being set in one pass by the engraver, an increase in depth depth of just  0.001" makes a perceptible difference in the width. You can see this if you look carefully at the ovals on my makers plates as posted earlier.

The number plates should be relatively easier to machine due to the increased distance between the individual elements but as they are one of the more eye-catching and prominent items they really have to be good..!

 

The background colour for both makers and number plates on all photos I have of Terriers in IEG livery (including Boxhill) is blue. You look to have the correct shade on your photos, as Julian says Revell 52 enamel seems to be the best match. However,  Fenchurch in umber livery has dark brown backgrounds, might I be not the only one to mix up things like that..?

Jim S

[terrier060]

OK Folks - first of all let me thank you for your kind remarks and encouragement which has kept me on a quest for perfection, or as near as we are going to get! It is good to be corrected and if you look at my first attempt when Julian told me that the works plates on Fenchurch were a poor representation of the originals, you will see we have come a long way and I feel pretty happy with the results unless anyone comes up with something better.

Regarding the works plate on Boxhill - be prepared to eat your hats, or please come up with a good explanation. This is the photo I took of Boxhill in the NRM - comments please!

Boxhill works plate by ed cloutman, on Flickr


A very kind gentleman - I won't give his name because I have not yet got his permission, has sent me a closeup of the number plate on Waddon.  From this I have been able to get as close as I can so far to the correct number '7'.  Please take a look at the enclosed Fusion drawing and tell me what you think. 


Fenchurch number plate by ed cloutman, on Flickr

[terrier060]

First big cock-up today - the spotting drill bored right through the work before I could stop it. I got complacent having done so many plates (up to 20 now including all the tests). I did not check the thickness of the material in the CAM setup when I was putting in the X and Y co-ords. Very Silly!

[jma1009]

Hi Ed,

Re your pic of Boxhill at the NRM and the works plate innards being painted 'brown' (not IEG) I cannot offer any explanation except that someone made a mistake! Boxhill now has these plates the correct blue colour, as do Stepney's works plates and Waddon's works plates; all replicas. F C Hambleton and J N Maskelyne and H J Campbell Cornwall all mention blue as the innards colour same as the innards to the numberplates, as does Bob Shephard of Precision Paints fame on here.

In respect of your pic today of the much larger numberplates, I think you have to be very careful and draw in the grooves for the black paint around the inside and outside of 'LONDON BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY' rather than show these as 2 oval lines. Then I think you may need to slightly adjust everything, and show the numerals'72' slightly smaller in any event.

I don't think the 'serif' you have added to the bottom right tail of the '7' to be correct, and the bottom of the '2' both the bottom left and bottom right should be tapered points, but I will check this before confirming.

The width of the '2' is slightly more than the '7' which departs from usual font sizing - as I have said the Stroudley numeral font for the number plates is quite bizarre and does not follow any rules - but the overall aesthetic effect is quite splendid. (The GWR numeral font for number plates also contains lots of bizarre numerals!)

Cheers,

Julian

[Jim Scott]

Nov 23, 2018 16:38:14 GMT terrier060 said:

Regarding the works plate on Boxhill - be prepared to eat your hats, or please come up with a good explanation. This is the photo I took of Boxhill in the NRM - comments please!

Hi Ed

Guilty of lack of care and attention M'Lud, I've started at the peak and I'm working around the rim..! I have unearthed one of my very early printed photos of Boxhill which clearly shows the makers plate background as dark brown as per your photo.

Whether this was typical of the rest of the class is open to conjecture though. I know that those on Waddon and Stepney are blue and on every other photo I have I can't distinguish dark blue from dark brown due to the poor lighting. Also, photos of an immaculate Boxhill taken at Clapham circa mid 1960's and available to view online do little to suggest the colour is dark brown rather then dark blue:
www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/12796550753
plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/British-Mainline-Steam/i-6tvb2tC/A
www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/110859.jpg

There is also a very good zoomable photo of Boxhill outdoors at the NRM York:
collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co205737/london-brighton-south-coast-railway-locomotive-boxhill-steam-locomotive
Once again the background colour isn't blindingly obvious.

Given that the detailed livery sheet for Boxhill produced by Bob Shepherd also indicates both plates having a dark blue background the evidence in favour of blue seemed quite strong. Unless we can find a written description somewhere I think its a case of 'you pays your money and takes your choice'. Mine is dark blue...

Jim S

[jma1009]

Hi Jim,

I can clearly see blue in those works plates in your links!

(Except 'Gladstone' which has the latter simplified works plates from circa 1880 onwards).

To suggest any other colour means that F C Hambleton, J N Maskelyne, and Campbell Cornwall were all wrong! It also goes against the colour of the number plate innards. The only use of blue on the Stroudley livery was the background around the numerals of the Stroudley number plates and works plates, and it makes sense that the work plates would be the same as the number plates. (There was use of blue in the block shading to the gilt lettering on the side tanks, but this was very small and another topic entirely).

Stroudley designs both number plates and works plates. Both in brass, and both with the lettering and 2 border'groves'in black, and the innards around the numerals in deep blue. Anything else makes no sense when considering Stroudley's aesthetics!

Cheers,

Julian

[Rob]

I'm not so sure. 

In some images, the background looks almost black. I've found pictures of a number of models where the background colour is definitely not blue, too.

Compare and contrast these, for example:

LB&SCR 82 Boxhill @ NRM York by Sim0nTrains Photos, on Flickr





With Waddon, where a (admittedly light) blue background is easily identifiable. 

54 Waddon, Montreal by nigelmenzies, on Flickr


There's also an image of an O gauge model with a different colour too, not that I'm saying that's definitive!





I'm surprised that there are no high quality, high resolution images of this engine on the internet!

[terrier060]

Thanks Jim, Julian and Rob. It is a puzzle - it seems strange that they would have got the infill the wrong colour being a National Museum restoration. I have painted mine blue because I have not seen an original from Fenchurch and the consensus is that it should be blue.

I stopped to make another item today that I have been meaning to make for months. Roger will recognize it!!

Adapter by ed cloutman, on Flickr


This is the result which needs some refining - the 'tail' on the '2' is a bit small.  Below is the plate from Waddon to show the shape of the tail on the '7'.  I have to thank a couple of personal contacts for that and am extremely grateful to them.

Fenchurch 72 Plate by ed cloutman, on Flickr


LBSCR_numberplate_71 by personal contact, on Flickr

[terrier060]

Here is a test one to see if it looks OK when painted. I am going to make the 72 a bit smaller.

Test plate by ed cloutman, on Flickr

[terrier060]

At last I have finished the plates, which has taken some time. Getting depths of cut correct is the main difficulty and I managed to bet a finer text around the edge by setting the offset 1.5 thou higher than it should have been. Julian came for a visit and we talked for hours and never even got to talking about clocks. But he gave me the thumbs up for the plates and that is good enough for me! Now I can get on with other things and will have a go at the smokebox door for the A1X.

Finished plates by ed cloutman, on Flickr

[Jim Scott]

Hi Ed

It was worth the extra effort....!

Jim S