BR Dark Green - which one?

[oldnorton]

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I don't seem to be able to find the right threads.

I am looking for the BS codes for the BR green as applied to Britannia, and hopefully the shade used for the current 70000 following its repaint.

The problem is, there is a lot of misdescription used. David Clarke describes it as 'BR Dark Green' which I trust, but if you look at the BS381 list of colours that I believe was the BR palette, then the only dark shades are 224 Deep Bronze Green and 227 Deep Brunswick Green.

The various paint suppliers like Phoenix and Craftmaster only describe it as 'their' shade of BR Green which I suppose is understandable as they are protecting their information. Paragon are a bit more helpful as they stock BS381 224 and BS381 227, but no 'plain' Dark Green. www.paragonpaints.co.uk/BS381C-Colours.html

I can guess the reality was that BR painted them in whatever approximately right shade got delivered!

Any help from all you Britannia experts would be gratefully received.

[Deleted]

Who last painted the loco? if 'Heritage Paints' (more likely than not) try contacting them directly. They helped me with questions related to paint on 4472 very recently. They have a FaceBook page which is probably the quickest way of getting a response.

Regards

Pete

[Jim]

Dec 20, 2018 11:01:11 GMT oldnorton said:

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I don't seem to be able to find the right threads.

I am looking for the BS codes for the BR green as applied to Britannia, and hopefully the shade used for the current 70000 following its repaint.

The problem is, there is a lot of misdescription used. David Clarke describes it as 'BR Dark Green' which I trust, but if you look at the BS381 list of colours that I believe was the BR palette, then the only dark shades are 224 Deep Bronze Green and 227 Deep Brunswick Green.

The various paint suppliers like Phoenix and Craftmaster only describe it as 'their' shade of BR Green which I suppose is understandable as they are protecting their information. Paragon are a bit more helpful as they stock BS381 224 and BS381 227, but no 'plain' Dark Green. www.paragonpaints.co.uk/BS381C-Colours.html

I can guess the reality was that BR painted them in whatever approximately right shade got delivered!

Any help from all you Britannia experts would be gratefully received.

For what it's worth I was given a paint sample of BR Green by a friend, I suspect it was Precision Paints BR Green. I used the sample to have an automotive paint supplier mix up spray cans for me. I didn't mention a name for the shade of green but the spray cans came back labelled Beromix BR Green and that's the colour I sprayed Boadicea with.

Ultimately colours are in the eye of the beholder. I believe if it looks right to you then that's the colour to use.

Jim.

[delaplume]

Hello everyone,

Obviously it must be Christmas Time because here's that "good old chestnut" again.... And to freely mis-quote from author Richard Llewellyn }---How Green Was My Loco.

OK, maybe I'm getting into the jovial spirit a wee bit early but it can be a real angst for most of us who, having just spent a shed-load of time and money creating our pride and joy then go on to find that the particular colour ( not necessarily Green ) which has been advised as being }---- "Correct" !!! is anything but...........And what's 10 x WORSE than a "Rivet Counter" heading your way down at the track ??......It's Mr. Peter the perfect Painter !!.......He's got more shades and sub-shades at his disposal ( allegedly ) than stars in the heavens!!



The problem for us "Modern" folk is that we have so much choice -- more so than any Chief ME had at his disposal back in the day....

I think that to play safe you use a paint that has the year and / or the shade printed on the container and that you keep a labelled tin or bottle in your toolbox for just such an occasion !!

[92220]

Dec 20, 2018 11:01:11 GMT oldnorton said:

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I don't seem to be able to find the right threads.

I am looking for the BS codes for the BR green as applied to Britannia, and hopefully the shade used for the current 70000 following its repaint.

The problem is, there is a lot of misdescription used. David Clarke describes it as 'BR Dark Green' which I trust, but if you look at the BS381 list of colours that I believe was the BR palette, then the only dark shades are 224 Deep Bronze Green and 227 Deep Brunswick Green.

The various paint suppliers like Phoenix and Craftmaster only describe it as 'their' shade of BR Green which I suppose is understandable as they are protecting their information. Paragon are a bit more helpful as they stock BS381 224 and BS381 227, but no 'plain' Dark Green. www.paragonpaints.co.uk/BS381C-Colours.html

I can guess the reality was that BR painted them in whatever approximately right shade got delivered!

Any help from all you Britannia experts would be gratefully received.

Hi.

I'm sorry to tell you that whatever you have been told before, there is NO British Standard equivalent to British Railways Locomotive Green. There were actually 2 slightly different Greens.............Pre 1954 and Post 1954. They were originally referred to in the British Railways Standard as British Railways Locomotive Green BR Spec 30 item 34a for the Pre 1954 colour, and British Railways Locomotive Green Spec 54 Item 12 for the Post 1954 colour.  As far as I know, the only source of the  CORRECT  BR Loco Greens, is Phoenix Paints, unless someone else has copied their colours.

I was given original sample panels by the BR Surface Coatings Lab in Derby, to colour match for the company, and we supplied BR with all the paint for all the diesels that were repainted in the old 'steam liveries' colours, in the mid 1980s.

There is a rather funny story here. One Thursday lunchtime, I got a phone call from Plymouth loco works asking if we could get them 5 x 5 litres of Post 1954 Loco Green delivered the next day. Normally they ordered about 2 weeks in advance, so I asked why they wanted it so quickly. Apparently they had repainted one of the diesels, ready for use on the Royal train that weekend, and after they had painted it, it had stood in the works for a couple of days. Naturally it got dusty and covered in splodges of bird muck, so that Thursday morning they got one of the apprentices to take it to the loco wash to wash it down. They forgot to tell him that the wash liquid had to be diluted 20 : 1 !!!!! The loco went into the wash a lovely Loco Green and came out a horrible Brown!!! Oopps. Just 2 days before being needed for the Royal train!! There was no way I could make the paint and get it to them inside 2 days so I had to find the nearest car colour and advise them to go buy the emergency supply from their local car paint supplier. It was near the standard but still not exactly right. A short while later, we got an order for 5 x 5 litres to overpaint the car colour.

The Phoenix numbers are P100 for the Pre 1954 BR Loco Green and P101 for the Post 1954 BR Loco Green. The difference is that the Pre '54 colour was the old Post 1945 GWR Loco Green that they adopted, and the Post '54 colour was just a little darker and a little Bluer. Pre 1954 the colours were only required to be approximate matches to the standard panel but the post 1954 colour was required to be a 'touch-up' match. This meant that all paint manufacturers had to guarantee that anyone else's BR colour could be used for touching up, so they were all identical after 1954.  

Bob.

[oldnorton]

I though we might enjoy some Christmas themed discussions... dark green... holly...

[oldnorton]

Thank you Bob, very helpful, and sorry if you have said it all before on a different thread.

What is helpful, but upsetting, is to find that it is neither the Deep Bronze nor the Deep Brunswick, but a special that has no BS code. So, how did BR ensure consistency of supply of the post 1954 standard without a BS reference?

Slightly upsetting news because I now cannot easily get 2K gloss from my local supplier against a BS code.

It is interesting to read of your comparisons of pre and post -54 being that the latter was darker and bluer. Would you have a subjective view on how these compared with the Deep Bronze and the Deep Brunswick? I ask because those two just seem 'darker' than I remember Duchess of Sutherland when I spent ages looking at it in its old green.

[simplyloco]

Dec 20, 2018 15:03:23 GMT oldnorton said:

I though we might enjoy some Christmas themed discussions... dark green... holly...

Yes, a 'prickly' subject...

I am reliably informed that is the correct colour, although I've chosen the Phoenix post 1954 paint!
John
WP_20181104_19_14_06_Pro by inkaboat, on Flickr

[oldnorton]

Thank you John, nice to see the green, and I like it.

Thinking about colour problems: I accidentally agreed to a full house repaint this summer, which my wife said was long overdue, and I discovered how the little sample colour strips lead you to choose something that completely changes in intensity when it goes on the wall. Once I learnt that one, and amassed a vast number of sample pots, I discovered that the appearance on the wall changes depending on what the other colours are near to it. I thought that I was being clever contracting the work to a proper painter, but then you come into a room after he has finished and realize it wasn't quite what you had in mind.

[92220]

Dec 20, 2018 15:17:28 GMT oldnorton said:

Thank you Bob, very helpful, and sorry if you have said it all before on a different thread.

What is helpful, but upsetting, is to find that it is neither the Deep Bronze nor the Deep Brunswick, but a special that has no BS code. So, how did BR ensure consistency of supply of the post 1954 standard without a BS reference?

Slightly upsetting news because I now cannot easily get 2K gloss from my local supplier against a BS code.

It is interesting to read of your comparisons of pre and post -54 being that the latter was darker and bluer. Would you have a subjective view on how these compared with the Deep Bronze and the Deep Brunswick? I ask because those two just seem 'darker' than I remember Duchess of Sutherland when I spent ages looking at it in its old green.

Hi.

I'm afraid I don't have my BS381c any longer. It stayed with Phoenix Paints when I retired. As far as remembering a colour goes, you can't. The human brain can remember a colour accurately for no more than 3 seconds. Then the colour memory remembers it as progressively lighter and brighter, as time goes on, than it's true shade.  BR ensured the Post 1954 colours were constant between manufacturers because they supplied all them all with a 'Standard Panel' which was used for colour matching, and the matched paint had to be close enough to be able to be used to touch up the standard panel if necessary.

My recollection of those 2 colours is that the Deep Bronze Green was much too brownish in tone and the Deep Brunswick Green was quite a bit too dark, but I can't actually remember the colours; just the differences. However, my recollection is helped by the fact that I know these 2 colours were darker than the BR Loco Green and I actually have a sample panel of the last batch of BR Loco Green paint made for Evening Star, when BR repainted her for preservation. I also have a 250mls tin of that actual paint, to apply a single final coat on my model. I shall just wait for someone to say I have the colour wrong!!! Luckily solvent based paints, if stored in a tin with almost no air space, can last for a hundred years. In fact if anyone has a tin of paint that, when shaken, sounds as if it has a liquid inside, has a tin of paint that should be able to be mixed up well enough to use. It is just a case of scrape all the settled out pigment from the bottom and thoroughly mix it in with a power mixer.

Bob.

[delaplume]

Hello everyone....

Have a look at the following and make of them what you will}------

a) RAL 6007

b) RAL 6009

c) Halford's Dark Green spray

d) Halford's Brookland's Green spray

e) Land Rover Deep Bronze Green LRC001

f) Phoenix p9 paint

[delaplume]

Here's my Polly cab in Halford's Rover Brooklands Green.......unfortunately the flash has bleached it a bit....................
[ur