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Post by norfolkandgood on Mar 11, 2020 9:54:05 GMT
I suspect that I'm like a lot of workmen in their 50's in so much as I find it easier to estimate measurements in imperial ( my thumb is 1" wide my hand 4" broad you get the drift) but prefer to mark out in millimetres. This extends to the estimation of weight and volume. I find it impossible to visualise 70kgs at 1.79M for instance, but 11st and 5'9" has some substance that I can evaluate. No doubt this dualism will die out just as the 'Ready Reckoner' did when we all got calculators. Guy
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Post by delaplume on Mar 11, 2020 9:58:21 GMT
I signed-on in Plymouth in Sept. '65......not long after we were helping with the Torrey Canyon incident.......John, those part numbers look like a section of the Nato Stock Number ( NSN ) system perhaps ??.........I met Joyce through that as she was a Stores Keeper at ABRO Donnington at the time.....
Regarding thread types, material specs. etc}------ If the builder ( or in my case restorer ) implements a change to the original requirements then it's to the benefit of us all to at least make a note of said change--- either as an appendage on the drawings or create a pamphlet maybe...
It's the AGM for my Club to-night and as Treasurer I'm inspired by the modern American way of dealing with matters Fiscal .... No longer do we have Profit and Loss but}-------------"PROFIT" and "NEGATIVE PROFIT"..........So it will be my great privilege to report that due to heavy commitments during the last year we now have incurred the biggest Negative Profit in our history !!
That should get a response, one way or another !!.........( only joking, folks )
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Post by Jim Woods on Mar 11, 2020 19:21:03 GMT
I am sure if the modern technology and materials of today was available to Greenly and LBSC they would have used it. But surely we are living in the past as we continue to build obsolete model and miniature steam loco's and other items that past in to the history books many years ago?
Jim
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Post by Roger on Mar 11, 2020 19:42:36 GMT
I am sure if the modern technology and materials of today was available to Greenly and LBSC they would have used it. But surely we are living in the past as we continue to build obsolete model and miniature steam loco's and other items that past in to the history books many years ago? Jim I'm sure you're right about modern tech, both in full size and in ME. I read somewhere that LBSC resisted writing 'Shop Shed & Road', saying something to the effect that methods and ideas were constantly evolving so they would quickly be out of date. In the years since his passing, these sorts of books have acheived an almost Religious following, not what he would have wanted at all. If he was expecting others to keep things moving forward, he'd have been very disappointed looking at many of us here in 2020, still going about things the same old way. Modern machines, 3D modelling, 3D printing and lost wax casting are finally available to anyone who's interested in using them. It's not for everyone, but to me, learning new techniques and pushing the boundaries of what I can achieve is an absolute joy. There's no way I'd ever go back to traditional ME methods, it's just too much like hard work.
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Post by Cro on Mar 11, 2020 21:08:32 GMT
I haven’t commented here because to be honest the topic went off on a tangent so quickly I couldn’t be bothered to read it all and find out what people were talking about.
I look forward to reading the article when I next go home and borrow dads magazine. As with Roger I’m an advocate for the modern world and techniques (shock!) but I still thrive in using traditional methods to achieve the same result. I have always said what I do personally is a mix between modern manufacturing and the traditional hobby and that’s how I like it to be.
Adam
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Post by Roger on Mar 11, 2020 21:24:10 GMT
Like Adam, I still use some traditional methods. My Lathe is of the Manual variety, but with the benefit of DROs to make life easier. Sometimes it's simply not appropriate to have CNC, and the Lathe is one of those cases in my opinion. The setting and programming times for Lathe operations doesn't make it an attractive proposition in a jobbing shop. I've toyed with the idea many times, it's easy enough to do, but the benefits simply aren't there.
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Post by suctionhose on Mar 12, 2020 9:01:48 GMT
Some time ago I had a thread about motivations. Your reason for doing it is key to the methods you choose. Adam Cro is marketing to people that want the level of details on their models. More power to him. Greatest respect for Adam's capability (which would not be a product without Mike in Auckland who also deserves due credit for a seamless workflow that I have utilised to great benefit myself) Roger is primarily about building something using CNC etc and that something just happens to be Speedy. Greenglade Pete is uncompromising on authenticity whatever it takes. Myself, I love the period and skills when things were made by hand. That's what I want to do and obviously to automate that would not suit my purpose. If exploring modern materials is your thing the try RC flying, gas turbine helis, jets, indoor flying comps, drone racing...plenty of avenues to do so. Me, I'm building an 1880 steam ploughing engine and I want to experience that work and those skills in doing so. I knocked in 1152 rivets by hand in the wheels because that's what I want to do. That's why I'm building it. In fact, my project has exposed me to such interesting and diverse subjects that the 'journey' of building is an experience many times greater than the end product itself. Find your reason for doing what your doing. If it's simply to enjoy running a steam engine then that's what it is and get there by the shortest possible route. It's not a competition.
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Post by Oily Rag on Mar 12, 2020 22:04:39 GMT
" Gentlemen , gentlemen, quiet, quiet please, Mr Brunel wishes to speak at this meeting" " Thank you chair, my dear board of directors, I implore you all to sanction the funding of new CNC machines for the workshop and CAD packages for the drawing office, my report outlines clearly the rational for this investment, oh, and before it slips my mind, also one of those new fangeled propellers for the Great Britain."
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Post by Oily Rag on Mar 12, 2020 22:30:39 GMT
Snipped for clarityIn fact, my project has exposed me to such interesting and diverse subjects that the 'journey' of building is an experience many times greater than the end product itself. Find your reason for doing what your doing. If it's simply to enjoy running a steam engine then that's what it is and get there by the shortest possible route. It's not a competition. Hear hear. Well said sir.
It is the "journey" , that is the essence of one's life. This applies to our humble hobby, and sharing is enhancing this journey.
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millman
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 298
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Post by millman on Mar 13, 2020 15:59:00 GMT
It’s whatever puts a smile on your face!
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 14, 2020 17:41:26 GMT
Fame Once Again!I received my free copy of EIM today. The Editor, Andrew Charman, has done me proud and I get 75 quid too! If you want to read my article you'll have to buy a copy... John
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 14, 2020 18:26:09 GMT
I'm about as old fashioned as it comes when its down to workshop methods, but thats my choice, and no, mention of your modern methods doesn't send me into aplopexy at all, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't for most of us. Possibly you misjudge us. I admire your 3D printed parts, as I do all of the jewel like bits that Roger produces with his CNC equipment.
If I was setting out on a new loco, which to be honest, I'm unlikely to do now, then yes, I'd be looking into laser cut parts. I've done frames the hard way in the past, but whatever else I am, I'm no masochist (sorry, can't spell it but you'll know what I mean). Even LBSC, who is often held up as the god of traditional methods, had oxyacetylene equipment way ahead of the vast majority of his readers, and I'm sure that if he was still with us, he'd be using modern methods.
I know there was a suggestion a while ago, that anyone using laser cut frames, coupling rods, sheet metal parts etc , should be made to declare it if entering the model for an exhibition, and that the judges should mark this down compared to one built 'traditionally'. I didn't agree with this, and I don't think the idea gained much traction. Same with CNC- manual machining is a skill, programming CNC machines is a skill, different, but both skills, requiring to be learned.
My eyesight must be better than I thought, I managed to read your article, without even going down to WHS to read it!
Oh, and just to cause trouble (Its a skill of mine) bronze chisels, hammers and spanners are still in use in oil refineries and gas installations, for thier non-spark properties.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,912
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Post by JonL on Mar 14, 2020 20:07:04 GMT
We use brass tools when working in the aircraft fuel tanks.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 14, 2020 22:27:22 GMT
I'm about as old fashioned as it comes when its down to workshop methods, but thats my choice, and no, mention of your modern methods doesn't send me into aplopexy at all, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't for most of us. Possibly you misjudge us. I admire your 3D printed parts, as I do all of the jewel like bits that Roger produces with his CNC equipment. If I was setting out on a new loco, which to be honest, I'm unlikely to do now, then yes, I'd be looking into laser cut parts. I've done frames the hard way in the past, but whatever else I am, I'm no masochist (sorry, can't spell it but you'll know what I mean). Even LBSC, who is often held up as the god of traditional methods, had oxyacetylene equipment way ahead of the vast majority of his readers, and I'm sure that if he was still with us, he'd be using modern methods. I know there was a suggestion a while ago, that anyone using laser cut frames, coupling rods, sheet metal parts etc , should be made to declare it if entering the model for an exhibition, and that the judges should mark this down compared to one built 'traditionally'. I didn't agree with this, and I don't think the idea gained much traction. Same with CNC- manual machining is a skill, programming CNC machines is a skill, different, but both skills, requiring to be learned. My eyesight must be better than I thought, I managed to read your article, without even going down to WHS to read it! Oh, and just to cause trouble (Its a skill of mine) bronze chisels, hammers and spanners are still in use in oil refineries and gas installations, for thier non-spark properties. Full size loco frames would have been cut out with a "gas axe" then tickled up with a grinder. Laser cutting will give a reasonably scale appearance of the full size finish
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Post by suctionhose on Mar 15, 2020 7:35:41 GMT
This is relevant in the sense that I've just had an amazing day in the workshop "making stuff by hand". My machine tools are hardly toolroom standard - more maintenance shop quality i.e worn - nor do I have grinding or anything fancy to measure with. It's basic. This is the big end of my 1880 ploughing engine which I determined to be of a design I didn't like but was true to the period so I decided to give it try. Tools to slot the rectangular holes were ground on the bench grinder by hand. Wedges and Glut were made to scribed lines and filing a thou off her and there. The final fit of these though the 1 3/4" long retangular hole required stoning and lapping with grinding paste. It's beautiful! When you knock that wedge in - thonk - it all becomes as solid as a rock. Gosh I've enjoyed this work: draw filing a thou off here and there, feeling the shape more than you measure it, Chencking parallel of fox wedges and tweaking the seats slightly to get complete contact.
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 15, 2020 8:42:29 GMT
This is relevant in the sense that I've just had an amazing day in the workshop "making stuff by hand". My machine tools are hardly toolroom /quote] That's a good gib and cotter joint. I made a 2" one some 50 years ago: there was only five thou allowance on the height of the wedge above the joint! Thankfully it was the only one I ever made...
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 15, 2020 9:09:55 GMT
Harold Holcroft, writing of his apprenticeship at the Wolverhampton works of the GWR, around the beginning of the last century, speaks of frame plates being roughly punched to shape, then fastened together in pairs (or more) before being finished in a slotting machine, and finally drilled. Presumably by the 1930s, gas profile cutting was used, but possibly followed by something a little more accurate than tickling up with a grinder.
When I was collecting some castings from a West Midlands foundry several years ago, I was shown around their machine shop. In the niddle was what has started life as a large planing machine with a 20 foot or so, table travel. It now had a CNC controlled vertical mill mounted on it, and was machining the frames for a 'new build' full size loco - which one I have now forgotten.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Mar 15, 2020 9:17:24 GMT
This is relevant in the sense that I've just had an amazing day in the workshop "making stuff by hand". My machine tools are hardly toolroom standard - more maintenance shop quality i.e worn - nor do I have grinding or anything fancy to measure with. It's basic. This is the big end of my 1880 ploughing engine which I determined to be of a design I didn't like but was true to the period so I decided to give it try. Tools to slot the rectangular holes were ground on the bench grinder by hand. Wedges and Glut were made to scribed lines and filing a thou off her and there. The final fit of these though the 1 3/4" long retangular hole required stoning and lapping with grinding paste. It's beautiful! When you knock that wedge in - thonk - it all becomes as solid as a rock. Gosh I've enjoyed this work: draw filing a thou off here and there, feeling the shape more than you measure it, Chencking parallel of fox wedges and tweaking the seats slightly to get complete contact. I'm in the process of doing 12 of these, much smaller than yours, for Locomotion, by similar methods. Yours is much better finished than mine are, at present anyway. I've had to resort to hand stamping the parts of each assembly, because each one is individually fitted. The slot that is 1 3/4" long on yours is only 3/4" long on mine. The first one was interesting, but I admit that 12 is becoming tedious. Just to show that I'm not entirely of the Fred Flintstone generation, if I'd had access to EDM equipment I'd have happily used it for the slots, rather than drill, mill, slot the ends square and finish file
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Post by suctionhose on Mar 15, 2020 10:36:26 GMT
[/url][/quote]I'm in the process of doing 12 of these, much smaller than yours, for Locomotion, by similar methods. Yours is much better finished than mine are, at present anyway. I've had to resort to hand stamping the parts of each assembly, because each one is individually fitted. The slot that is 1 3/4" long on yours is only 3/4" long on mine.
The first one was interesting, but I admit that 12 is becoming tedious.
Just to show that I'm not entirely of the Fred Flintstone generation, if I'd had access to EDM equipment I'd have happily used it for the slots, rather than drill, mill, slot the ends square and finish file [/quote]
The slotted holes are the biggest part. I toyed with ways of fabricating metal around the hole which I didn't end up doing. Cut from solid. However that may still be an option for a smaller joint? Silver solder two parts together leaving the hole open? 12 off sounds quite daunting but rest assured they tighten up really well.
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Post by delaplume on Mar 15, 2020 11:59:14 GMT
Hi ettingtonliam,
Quote---"My eyesight must be better than I thought, I managed to read your article, without even going down to WHS to read it!".......Being of a similar mind to John and Co....ie not living in the past.......I didn't go go into town and WH Smiths but}---
a) Hover pointer over photo b) Right clik on mouse and select "Save image" c) When loaded select "open" which is now a Download d) When image appears scroll up or down as normal BUT the mouse wheel now gives you magnification as well....
OK---- I know most of you probably have this ability already but as a Computer-based, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal it pleased me somewhat...
John, an interesting article which transcended from a Club Newsletter to a National monthly without compromise...Well done........
Unfortunately at £700 for a 3D printer I can't justify that outlay for the type of restoration / repair work that is my main type of model engineering but those lining pens certainly will be of great benefit....The article has jogged my lethargic wallet into action and I'll be ordering some quite soon....
Maybe the Biro Pen Price principle will apply and I'll get a printer in a few years time ???
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