Still Living in the Past?

[simplyloco]

I've had another article published in the ME press! I wrote an article with the above title for our Club newsletter. It was spotted by the Editor of 'Engineering in Miniature', and is being published this month. It opens with:

Why does the mere mention of modern methods and materials send certain ME people into fits of apoplexy? It’s not as if we haven’t progressed from belt driven lathes and bronze chisels to the sleek (and relatively inexpensive) machines that adorn the workshops of those who still know how to use them! Etc.,etc..

The fee is miserable but the glory is priceless...  
John

[flyingfox]

It's very satisfying to see your name in print now and again.
Regards
Brian

[masahiraoka]

John
Please share your article with us on this website
Regards Martyn

[simplyloco]

Mar 5, 2020 17:40:26 GMT masahiraoka said:

John
Please share your article with us on this website
Regards Martyn

Hi Martyn
It was just a distillation of what I have put on here from time to time, but I'll see if I can lift it as a pdf.
John

[jasonb]

I'd be interested to see it as I'm not sure belt drive lathes are a thing of the past or are you thinking of an old Myford drive train or line shafting?

Modern variable speed 3-phase motor and VFD or Brushless DC motor driving the spindle direct with a polyvee belt is better than a lot of old stuff.

Timing belt from spindle to gearbox input has several advantages over gears as does an ELS using a stepper motor to drive the leadscrew again via a toothed timing belt.

[andyhigham]

There are some that scoff about laser cut frames, the spawn of Lucifer himself.
A dam site easier than sawing and filing.
There is a place for both old and new methods, its just a matter of choosing the best for the job in hand

[Roger]

For some, Model Engineering will forever be rooted in the 1940's with LBSC and the like as their Gods. To be fair, the Engineering used to build Models was more akin to the methods used to make the real thing. However, what's overlooked is the fact that most Models used Copper and not Steel for boilers, hand sawn frames instead of flame cut ones and such like.
I think it's more a matter of nostalgia, and a genuine fear of being overwhelmed by the inability to grasp these new fangled processes and machines.
You have to remember that most people involved in the hobby aren't Engineers, they're largely taught by ageing non-Engineers whose main source of information are those outdated and tired publications that are still seen as the 'official' way to make things.
Therefore it shouldn't be a big surprise to discover that Model Engineers are decades behind the curve when it comes to adopting what Industry considers to be fundamental and basic Engineering tools and equipment. These include such things as all digital measuring equipment and machines, Universal use of Carbide cutting tools, 3D modelling and the Metric system of units and threads.
All the time there are ancient designs, covered by ancient books with obsolete materials, threads and methods, change will be very slow indeed. Change will come eventually, but I suspect ME will always lag behind Industrial Engineering, largely because it's mostly carried out by old blokes who are incredibly resistant to change.

[ettingtonliam]

Don't like belt drive lathes eh? I don't think theres many that don't have a belt drive somewhere in the transmission department. Does yours?

[dscott]

A nice varied mix at Readings meet up tonight and a tiny return flue boiler for a dredger model.
Wonderful when you can take the boiler appart for the inspector to see inside.
Masses of square nuts and bolts needed now. Yes of course the ancient Meccano ones would be perfect!!

I had my sandboxes and the just before afternoon tea Tap broke off when it twisted in the vice not done up tight enough.
Well I now have a super bottoming tap after some diamond filing. It is holding the base plate on and some metal filler will be perfect.
Combination lever and union links for Jessie for show all shiny and to size. However ancient hand filing reverted to when at the very end there is very little to hold onto without additional bits being made. Yes the narrow bits between the bigger bearings... 20 minutes each including polishing.
The thought of them slipping with a milling cutter too much to contemplate.

David and Lily.

[dscott]

In fact the belt drive has saved many a super dig in from becoming nasty with a slipping belt.
I spent My teenage years being introduced to the Myford tri lever which is superb for many set ups.
Then my School A level project 1977 had me doing a double slipping belt lathe which during the week did all the slots in the above Union Links. Only the z belt from the motor replaced so far. Yes I can move it 1/4 turns and has seen loads of use.

Other belts of the 15 mm wide timing variety power our latest double electric. 2 Mobility motors with extended shafts in bearings driving to an axles. Steel wheels and just about liftable without the batteries. Superb transmission of power.
So far top speed not reached and standing start on our ground level incline. 5 adults and heavy trolley!

[Tony K]

I look forward to reading it John. I know what you mean.

Unfortunately the thread seems to have latched on to belt driven lathes and it was not really about that.

However, it does illustrate your point very well.

[simplyloco]

Mar 6, 2020 8:16:14 GMT Tony K said:

I look forward to reading it John. I know what you mean.

Unfortunately the thread seems to have latched on to belt driven lathes and it was not really about that.

However, it does illustrate your point very well.

Agreed. I should have used the term 'Overhead Shafting' to avoid being shafted by those who chose to ignore a pretty obvious reference!
John

[uuu]

Or treadle powered?

Wilf

[ettingtonliam]

Has it been published yet? I must take myself off to WH Smith and read it!

[simplyloco]

Mar 6, 2020 13:27:19 GMT ettingtonliam said:

Has it been published yet? I must take myself off to  Smith and read it!

Another ten days or so. I wouldn't want you to make a special journey: it's not that good!
John

[silverfox]

I admire the 'old guys' who did all that lovely work in building the 12th century onwards catherdrals. Tools all hand made. scaffolding going up 150ft or more etc
Likewise the early ME bods who also had rudimentry equipment, and produced stuff beyond what most of us could do on here with the kit thay had available
Bradbury-Winter and being more up to date Wingrove and Roger Zimmerman in the US for their cars.,and the models on show at various museums, and no doubt done by the apprentices.

Me i want every gizmo going that will help me in getting the loco on the track and looking like what it should be.
Sure the old skills should not be lost, sometimes despite having kit that could build a working Apollo module, However there will always be a need for a 2lb hammer sometime.

Everywhere the current equipment is allowing us to build models of every genre with detail to the Nth degree, moreover with this available and the concentration span of todays yoof,it is need if we want the hobby to continue, so whilst Malcolm High is laser cutting all the frame and plate work, hopefully drawn by them as they should be computer literate!! They can be getting to grips on the lathe/mill and seeing units being bored,drilled turned etc before their eyes and more important that they are in control of it. Much more satisfying surely than sitting for hours playing shoot'em up games on the PC.
Get to them if they show interest at the track. answer their questions let them drive after public running and more important make them feel selcome.
If you are one of those old farts, and they still exist, change your ways and impart your knowledge and YOU make the first move. you have lost nothing if they say no If you dont then you should be taken out and shot.You do not realise that you are the cause of the demise of the hobby, not the salvation.

Rant over

And i am starting to get my grandson in the workshop. the lathe is still good for another 50 years!!

[andyhigham]

The thing I still hate about the "old ways" and I have stated it on here many times, FRACTIONAL DIMENSIONS.
Having to convert fractions to decimal before even picking up a micrometer is asking for a mistake to be made. The only time a fractional dimension is any use is when using with a tape measure

[Roger]

Mar 6, 2020 19:05:28 GMT andyhigham said:

The thing I still hate about the "old ways" and I have stated it on here many times, FRACTIONAL DIMENSIONS.
Having to convert fractions to decimal before even picking up a micrometer is asking for a mistake to be made. The only time a fractional dimension is any use is when using with a tape measure

It's not just that issue, it's the mental gymnastics you have to go through to decide whether one fraction is larger or smaller than another fraction. For example, is 27/64" bigger or smaller than 7/16"?

[jasonb]

Mar 6, 2020 19:05:28 GMT andyhigham said:

The thing I still hate about the "old ways" and I have stated it on here many times, FRACTIONAL DIMENSIONS.
Having to convert fractions to decimal before even picking up a micrometer is asking for a mistake to be made. The only time a fractional dimension is any use is when using with a tape measure

I would think as long as people keep building the same old designs on old drawings that have not been updated that will be the case, back in the day when most were working with a steel rule and pair of friction calipers then fractional sizes were the better option and micrometers a luxury. They were also probably better at mental arithmatic of fractions than most of us today, just what you ar eused to I suppose

[Jo]

Mar 5, 2020 22:17:36 GMT Roger said:

For some, Model Engineering will forever be rooted in the 1940's with LBSC and the like as their Gods. To be fair, the Engineering used to build Models was more akin to the methods used to make the real thing. However, what's overlooked is the fact that most Models used Copper and not Steel for boilers, hand sawn frames instead of flame cut ones and such like.
….
Therefore it shouldn't be a big surprise to discover that Model Engineers are decades behind the curve when it comes to adopting what Industry considers to be fundamental and basic Engineering tools and equipment. These include such things as all digital measuring equipment and machines, Universal use of Carbide cutting tools, 3D modelling and the Metric system of units and threads.

I would like to make a stand an say that I very much appreciate the excellent designs of the 1940's, 50's and 60's. I am of course talking about model engines not Locomotives. One wouldn't want to build a boiler and chalk it with soft solder as is seen in those years But Westbury's designs for IC engines are still excellent (the building techniques need a bit of updating from his articles). How many of you have built models from the Victorian era? Yes you guessed: I mean any of the Stuart Turner range (I know a couple of the new ones like the Light weight appeared in the 1930's but the younger models are sadly no longer available whilst the older ones continue).

Don't get me on the imperilous measuring system. How are you ever meant to encourage the younger generation by publishing plans for engines in a measurement system that was withdrawn before their grandparents were born And most people know kids do not like fractions...

Jo