Cheque Book Engineering

[alanstepney]

Build, or buy?

The "Ebay A4 kit" thread attracted some comments on this topic, so this thread should enable people to put their opinions and ideas.

[Noddy]

What ever pleases us as individuals!

I was cautiously keeping away from the previous thread, but what the hell? I'll jump in here with both feet.

A gifted and persistant few can work wonders with a few hand tools and a lot of skill and persistance, others might be at the other extreme, short of time or inclination to develop those skills but gain pleasure from owning something already made.

I think most of us fall somewhere in between, both in skills and time we are willing or able to devote to our hobbies and interests. We come here for some craic and to share what we can.

Let's face it, this is something we each do to please our selves, If friends and family get some joy from it as well, all the better. The wider world, better still, but, apart from a few specialist suppliers, we are not doing it as wage slaves to please the tax man, or as some masochistic Zen ritual to purify our souls.

I'm glad to take a bit of ribbing and banter, hell, let's not all get long faces! but anyone coming with a "holier than thou" attitude about their particular interest can get to **** out of my way

OK, Rant over

Keith

ps probably killed the thread dead as well....

[ron]

I think it's just a fact of modern life, we live in a cash rich time poor society. I sometimes think this country could do with a right good recession to restore some sense to people's values, I took some stuff to the local dump [sorry recycling centre] recently and was amazed to see a HUGE pile of perfectly usable bikes dumped there, when I was a kid a second hand bike was a luxury, not any more, they seem to have no value. I think the big drawback to all this wealth is we are losing a lot of basic skills, as someone previously posted, we are probably the last generation that could restart the world after the big bang.
The classic car hobby has the same problem, DIYers and cheque book restorers who tend to sneer at each other, maybe we should all learn to live and let live.
Ron
PS where's the audition for Grumpy Old Modellers? ;D

[havoc]

Problem is, where do you draw the line? In the beginning I also thought that you weren't a real model engineer if you used more than a file and hacksaw. Then I bought a lathe, didn't build it myself. Then came the mill. Now I'm thinking of going for some laser cut frames. Probably becoming a heretic myself...

[Boadicea]

I think build versus buy will be a personal choice.

For me it was convenient to buy a loco in useable (just!) condition to get me started, mainly due to the cost. I spent my time improving it and running it and building up my skills and confidence, both in the workshop and on the track - giving great joy.

The next stage was to buy a partially completed loco and finish it whilst running and maintaining the other loco - again increasing my skills as I went. It soon dawned on me the running one would need constant maintenance and the idea of getting it right and it working for ever was flawed. It would always deflect my attention from finishing the other.

I think the idea of having a working loco and working on something else works quite well. Whether I can extend this to building from scratch remains to be seen, although it is probably the only way I will be able to afford, say, a 5" Scotsman. Selling one of them to get on the next rung will, again because of cost, be my only option. I suppose this will mean cheque book engineering to provide a buyer as I upgrade. Maybe we need both.

I agree with Ron, the skills are disappearing and the throw-away age is such a waste. This was brought home to me when my son started renovating bikes - fixing, spraying etc. Firstly it was astounding how good they were before the work was done. Secondly - he could not sell the finished goods because nobody wanted the stigma of a second hand bike and could afford new ones!

I think GOMs have already arrived.

[mmaidnz]

I remember the furore many years ago when R?C model aircraft became available in a box,with the major assemblies pre-built(ARTF-Almost Ready to Fly).There was a hue and cry from the traditional modelers that this would be the end of the hobby,etc.
In fact,the opposite has taken place.There are more fliers than ever,because more people have access to aircraft they would never be able to build,whether through time constraints or ability.
So chequebook modeling need not be feared by the "built it yourself"groups.I'm struggling through my first loco,and if a half finished one had been available when I started,I would have happily gone that route.Many people simply don't have the time,patience,or ability to build from scratch.
Where would all your loco's go when you go to that great railway in the skies?If nobody were interested in buying them,there would be piles of loco's sitting around quietly rusting away.AFAIK,that is not the case.So my wife can rest happily in the knowledge that when I kick the bucket,she'll be able to recoup something from that money-eating contraption I'm throwing together.

[durhambuilder]

I guess most people here are a cheque book engineer to some extent it's just where you draw the line, many of us buy ready built boilers, castings and even nuts and bolts, the true die hard would probably create all from scratch.

[mutley]

I have a foot in both camps. I purchased my first engine so I had something to play with whilst building my 9F. Due to the fact Im not anywhere near retirement, have a young family and a job that entails long hours I tend to buy parts to keep the project progressing. laser cut frames, wet jet profiled motion parts and ready made boiler fittings are like convience foods to me. I am more than capable of producing these parts I choose not to.

From personal experince could I offer a diffrent perspective to the normal view of cheque book engineers. These people are to be welcomed in model engineering clubs, they often bring additional skills that clubs can use. Given a little encouragement they are often willing to learn the skills to maintain/ improve there models. I recently spent a couple of days with a club member who has a kit built engine helping him to sort out the pipe work. Once shown how to approach the job he proved himself quite capable of doing it himself. We have since produced a set of near scale apperance saftey valves to repalce the originals.

At the Polly rally this year I had a chat with a gentleman who was considering building one of the offerings from Practiclal Scale, part of Polly Models. The succesful completion of a Polly kit had givem him the confidence, along with the availablity of the 'difficult' parts ready machined to tackle a more traditional approach.

Andy

[alanstepney]

My view is that we need ALL types in the model engineering fold.

I built my first engine from scratch. Or rather, bought drawings, castings, and some fittings (pressure gauge, for example), and built from there.

Having finshed it, I then needed to sell it to pay for the materials for the next engine.
Luckily there were guys with cheque books, who wanted to guy it.

That enabled me to buy what I needed, and so it goes on.

One sees the same in full-size. Some people will buy, then spend their time restoring, others will buy the best they can afford, perhaps pay others to do the work, and enjoy the ownership and running of whatever-it-is.

Also, as has been said, some who start off as buyers, or kit assemblers, later go on to build from scratch.

I dont think that the hobby is large enough for anyone to discourage others from joining it, or to decry any form of interest in the hobby, no matter what their personal preferences might be.

[ron]

I can see why people who either dont have the time or the ability want to buy locomotives or traction engines, at least you can play with them, the one that puzzles me is the high prices that Stuart Turner engines achieve. Having built several I would say the fun is definitely in the building, once they are completed they are really just a nice [expensive] ornament, they are not the sort of thing you are going to keep going back to play with.
Ron

[Richmond]

For 5 or 6 years I also did the Model Aircraft thing, and there are a lot of similarities.

Scale models, some scratch built, sport models ( freelance ), Balsa Kits, ARTF.......

I tend to agree that for a newcomer the ARTF can be a good start. However, in my expereince, once they can fly, they tend to start building, and once they crash a few times they have to learn to repair or buy new again.

So, it really depends on the level of intesrest and "what floats their particular boat".

I gaduated through to flying model gas turbine jets, and it cost me a fortune, approx £5K per model. The technology invloved ( carbon fibre ) meant that to get a high performance and accurate flying model one has to buy the jets ARTF, although I did build one or 2 myself from balsa and plywood. The engines themselves can be made ( FD3/64, KJ 66 ), but usually dont perform as well as shop bought ones ( approx £2k each ).

So in this respect one could say I was a cheque book modeller, but I had got the bug, and the adrenelin involved in flying a model jet at speeds of over 200mph is quite addicitive

Given the outlay on these models my thoughts came back to "proper" model engineering, and hence why i returned to this hobby. Yes, I have spent approx £5K on this workshop in terms of machines and tools etc, but I see it as a lifetime investment, and I know I will continually improve things. I know I will restore more lathes and mills, and make tooling, and make the odd model. But tools and tooling is what I am interested in at the minute.

I have built a Super Simplex, and a 2" Durham and N Yorks, and no doubt will go and make something along those lines again later in life, although I dont have the castings for any other "proper" locos, IC engines, or TE's in my workshop at present.

My current work in progress list at the minute stands at :

1 x CES rotary table
1 x Geo Thomas Div Head
1 X Slotting Tool
1 x Grad Tool
1 x Ball Turning Tool
1 x Quorn
1 x scratch built Vertical Slide

Myford Super 7 rebuild
Refurb and paint the J & S 540P as well as the S & B 1024

I would always advise people to spend the money on good machines and tools and research the local clubs / model engineers, rather than go down the ARTF ( Modelworks type ) kit route. Mainly because even if you have money to burn, money cant replace knowledge, or the satisfaction of doing something for yourself.

However, if you dont have the knowledge to craft them for yourself it is a great starting point. Would you expect a Bank Manager with no practical experience of engineering or even DIY to be able to make a loco from castings without assistance ?? Would they have the free time and patience given modern life pressures to be able to complete it in a reasonable timescale ??
I think not ;D

So, in summary, I would say patience, tolerance and understanding, respecting your peers and elders, as well as a willingness to learn are more important factors in this hobby.


Just my 2 p worth ;D

Rgds
Keith

[havoc]

Would you expect a Bank Manager with no practical experience of engineering or even DIY to be able to make a loco from castings without assistance ?? Would they have the free time and patience given modern life pressures to be able to complete it in a reasonable timescale ??
I think not

Well, you have 3 variables: time, money and means. But you can only have 2 at a time, the other will have to suffer.

Since no matter what you will need a workshop (the means) the only trade-off will be between money and time.

No matter what you can build without much knowledge before you start if you are willing to go slow and learn underway. I never did more diy than drilling a hole in the wall or change a seal. I never learned any metal working either (physics and electronics). So it takes me ages and a lot of scrap to make something that works. But for me I get just as much pleasure form making drawings and shaping the parts than from ending the job.

In fact I would even dare to say I like the work more than the finished product and it works it gets more or less shelved. Then I want to start something new.

[circlip]

Posted a reply to this but it disappeared into the ether, hey ho try again. Keith(Richmond), you picked a pretty poor example - Bank Manager, lots have, as well as clergymen and some you would not imagine. Was competing in thermal comps (sorry it's aircraft-toy ones) for many years but stopped when Cheque book came into the equation. A builder of the model rule was partially waved for the reasoning of getting new blood into the competitions but what was ignored was that not only were we trying to "Keep it up" but also refining our own designs. This was at the time of the influx of German super kits, molded fuselages AND wings. The trouble is that most (I didn't say ALL) of todays YOUFS seem to accept that because some smug b----r with the biggest and best super dooper whiz bang MUST be an expert, Obvious Innit?
Yes steammadman, WE have seen it. Although I am repeating what Havok has stated (it wouldn't have been a repeat if this dam'd machine hadn't developed a touch of Alzheimer's) we all delight in something different from our hobbies, some build to build, some build to play on, WHATEVER runs your train/machines your tools. I know you couldn't buy into the D of E award in the M.E. Exhibition, but what about the efficiency trials or the lower classes of ME, and after all we have a section on here for the Kit type Kits.

[Noddy]

I guess most people here are a cheque book engineer to some extent it's just where you draw the line, many of us buy ready built boilers, castings and even nuts and bolts, the true die hard would probably create all from scratch.

I'm going to be silly, but what the hell?

Where would or could you actually draw the line and claim one is "Authentic" and the other is "Chequebook" ?

I know that plenty do their own castings, but would any go so far as to go looking for pieces of ore to smelt, allong with producing the charcoal from trees they have grown or coke from coal they have dug?

I'm afraid that we all follow Adam Smith's "division of labour" to a greater or lesser extent, and are much the richer for it...

(ok a self sufficient model building crofter is going to pop up with photos (on home made glass plates using silver he extracted...) of his (or her) hand made lathe, cast and scraped from home smelted bog ore, dug with a wooden shovel carved with a flint.....)

Live and let live aye?

Keith

[havoc]

Just to pick in on Circlips post: the model shop closest by is closing for good. One of the reasons is that there isn't any building going on. The youth want a box that they open and "it works". And if it doesn't work the first time, they look somewhere else. Now if there is a hobby where "first try right" is better than model aircraft flying...

[spurley]

Keith

Live and let live..............I totally agree ;D

Cheers

Brian

[albertsell]

Hello,
My bug with people who buy some engineering product, they have no knowledge how to run or look after it and when it breaks is all can you look- help -make ??so if they want a good piece of engineering buy a lathe ect. to start with and make it.Then you know how it was made and how to repair it.
Bye Albert.

[waggy]

I fully agree with Noddy, how far do we have to take the "I made it myself" ideal?
As somebody on here has already said, whatever floats your boat!
Most of us attend exhibitions, the biggest crowds are usually around the trade stands, cheque books, cards and cash at the ready, methinks!

Waggy.

[philh]

What happens when we all pop our clogs? My kids are'nt in the slightest bit interested in my models, so I would be very pleased if they sold them for a good price to someone who would enjoy them.

[havoc]

Don't know. Don't have kids and never will. Probably all end up on the scrap heap. Model and shop alike.