timb
Statesman
Posts: 512
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Post by timb on Sept 6, 2020 12:40:04 GMT
What I'm badly trying to say is, we are all here for the same reasons, with the pleasure of the hobby at the core. Let's not get too bent out if shape about things said on a faceless forum where nuances of expression are lost, things can be interpreted many ways in just pure text where if they were said over a pub table we would be far more easily able to understand what is intended, for better or worse. I think it is easily done even when completely unintentional. Someones sense of humour may be at odds with anothers, the best meaning comments taken out of context. We are all responsible in some way or another, even if it is just not clicking on the thumbs up of a comment left with the best intentions on your thread.
It may be difficult at times but if we do not respond to comments in a positive way then the comments will dwindle to nothing, no one wanting critisism or thinking their comments are not recognised and therefore pointless.
There are precious few that post and comment, especially when you take into account the number of views for a particular thread. It seems to be the same names seen, we should be encouraging others to contribute not turning then away.
Just my thoughts (and yes, guilty as charged!).
Tim
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Post by Roger on Sept 6, 2020 15:06:07 GMT
Oh dear, a hornet's nest seems to have been disturbed...lol I have no issue with anyone fitting whatever they want to their loco, after all, it's theirs to do with as they please, indeed, my smaller pacific 4470 has an axle pump fitted so I swing both ways. Some of the comments made in this thread I personally find insulting to those who strive for perfection, trying to achieve a good looking accurate to the prototype model does not mean you fit into the description entailed by such words as 'purist, smug or elitist'. I do take exception though to those who attack others for wanting to faithfully follow the prototype, who are they to question what I or anyone else does. If that makes me a purist or rivet counter then good, I'll proudly wear that badge as there is nothing wrong with striving to accurately follow the prototype that they are building in miniature, it's only an issue if said purist looks down on others who don't follow their principle, that I would never do. 4472 is being built as a faithful miniature of its big sister, that means no axle pump or tender handpump, in fact, Don makes it very clear in his words where he sits on this subject, to quote, 'it would be undignified to fit this on such a model', I agree with him fully but also accept that it's the norm for one to be fitted and I have no problem with that, I do not look down on a model if it has one fitted. I also give consideration to the 'what if' scenario's which can and will occur when steaming a locomotive. I accept that it is possible for both injectors to fail, it has happened on full size and so can also happen on a model, I have briefly covered how I intend to deal with this in my build notes, I'll cover it in full detail when I get to this stage. I recall someone mentioning fuse plugs? Paul informed me when I questioned him fitting one to my boiler that this is now required for a CE stamp, no plug and the CE stamp is invalid, IIRC this is a recently new legislation. I also understand that as of yet this is not a 'code' issue as Paul said I can just blank the bush off with a plug if I don't want a fuse plug fitted, but the bush for it must be there for the CE stamp. Who's to know if one day this becomes part of the boiler code or not, if it does new commercial boilers within the last year or so should be covered. regards Pete Hi Pete, I hear what you're saying, but I definitely sense that some folk look down on others because of their decision to fit axle pumps, and I find that offensive. I agree that people can fit anything they like, and it would be preferable if they could do that without others disapproval. If I see that happening, I don't see why those who strongly disagree shouldn't make their position heard. If people don't like the heat, they shouldn't light the fire. Anyway, hopefully this episode can be drawn to a close and we've all learned to be a little more measured before we hit the Send button.
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Post by 92220 on Sept 6, 2020 16:54:14 GMT
Pete's post has just made me think (and I now have to take a rest)!!! Fusible plugs....I have to make two. What is the norm for the fusible part? Is it soft solder? If so, is it low or high temperature soft solder? Or is it lead? I've never seen this mentioned, and I have just realised that I have to make 2 sometime soon, before I make, and fit, the ashpan assembly.
Bob.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 17:17:50 GMT
Pete's post has just made me think (and I now have to take a rest)!!! Fusible plugs....I have to make two. What is the norm for the fusible part? Is it soft solder? If so, is it low or high temperature soft solder? Or is it lead? I've never seen this mentioned, and I have just realised that I have to make 2 sometime soon, before I make, and fit, the ashpan assembly. Bob. Hi Bob I asked Paul the same question, IIRC the answer was to make a normal blanking plug, centre drill it for a round head copper rivet to fit with the head on the firebox side. This is soft soldered in place, I can't recall what temp solder was mentioned, I'd probably go gor a higher temp solder but would double check with Paul first before making one, if indeed I do fit a fuseable plug? Regards Pete
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Post by chester on Sept 6, 2020 17:27:41 GMT
I always thought you had to have two methods at off supplying water to the boiler.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 17:36:11 GMT
I always thought you had to have two methods at off supplying water to the boiler. That's correct, two injectors counts as two methods, they don't have to be by different types of method. Pete
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 696
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Post by oldnorton on Sept 6, 2020 17:40:34 GMT
Yes, at a Steam Test the loco owner has to demonstrate the operation two independent fitted systems for the delivery of water to a pressurised boiler.
This CE requirement for a fusible plug is interesting. The UK boiler spec team (Northern Association, etc.) are generally against fusible plugs because of the false sense of security they might give. It is suggested that they fur up quickly when installed and thus will not blow to protect against low water levels. I think the boiler team suggest removing them every year for cleaning. But a furred up one is the same as a blanking plug perhaps, so the same outcome.
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Post by 92220 on Sept 6, 2020 18:04:01 GMT
Pete's post has just made me think (and I now have to take a rest)!!! Fusible plugs....I have to make two. What is the norm for the fusible part? Is it soft solder? If so, is it low or high temperature soft solder? Or is it lead? I've never seen this mentioned, and I have just realised that I have to make 2 sometime soon, before I make, and fit, the ashpan assembly. Bob. Hi Bob I asked Paul the same question, IIRC the answer was to make a normal blanking plug, centre drill it for a round head copper rivet to fit with the head on the firebox side. This is soft soldered in place, I can't recall what temp solder was mentioned, I'd probably go gor a higher temp solder but would double check with Paul first before making one, if indeed I do fit a fuseable plug? Regards Pete Thanks Pete. That sounds a good idea. I will contact Paul. Bob.
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don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
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Post by don9f on Sept 6, 2020 18:48:03 GMT
My 9F has one fusible plug in the centre of the firebox crown (Les Warnett / Norman Spink design). It is made as Pete described above, 3/32” copper river, 60 - 40 soft solder etc. The full size have three, lead filled which of course have to cope with higher temperatures during normal working....melting point of lead is approx. 327 deg. C
Cheers Don
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Post by springcrocus on Sept 6, 2020 21:55:35 GMT
Some of the comments made in this thread I personally find insulting to those who strive for perfection, trying to achieve a good looking accurate to the prototype model does not mean you fit into the description entailed by such words as 'purist, smug or elitist'. regards Pete I used the term "purist" and Pete is NOT one of those I'm refering to. A purist is someone who shows disdain for the opinion of others when it differs from their own view of the ideal.
There is also the goal to consider. Pete, Roger, Bob, John and others are trying to faithfully recreate the original in miniature form and, therefore, a hand-pump or axle pump may well be anathema to them. Other people are making a steam engine that loosely follows a prototype and driving the engine is the ultimate aim. Some will prefer to showcase their driving skills by not having a "rubber band" to power their loco. Nothing purist about either of these.
Me, I'm doing neither. My loco is loosely based on a Britannia but I don't much care whether I ever learn to drive it or not because I enjoy the engineering. If it looks like a loco and works like a loco then it's probably one step up from a pile of cr*p.
A purist looks down their nose at anyone who fails to meet their own arbitrarily-set standard. Not too many of those on this forum, I'm pleased to say.
Anyway, thats my opinion and, as I've always thought, everyone is entitled to my opinion.
Regards, Steve
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Post by simplyloco on Sept 7, 2020 8:00:56 GMT
Some of the comments made in this thread I personally find insulting to those who strive for perfection, trying to achieve a good looking accurate to the prototype model does not mean you fit into the description entailed by such words as 'purist, smug or elitist'. regards Pete SNIP
There is also the goal to consider. Pete, Roger, Bob, John and others are trying to faithfully recreate the original in miniature form and, therefore, a hand-pump or axle pump may well be anathema to them.
SNIP
Regards, Steve
Not me Steve! My Stirling's pumps are hidden and in no way detract from its appearance and hopefully its performance. I learnt in the Army that any fool can make themselves uncomfortable... BTW, here's a definition of 'Elite', and there's nothing wrong with belonging to that group. After all, there aren't many of us left... 'A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.'John
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 8:38:14 GMT
[quote author=" simplyloco" source="/post/193014/thread" . BTW, here's a definition of 'Elite', and there's nothing wrong with belonging to that group. After all, there aren't many of us left... 'A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.'John[/quote] Ah but John, there is a big difference between the words 'elite' and 'elitist' and that was why I personally took offence..... All water under the bridge now, move along folks... Kind regards Pete
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Neale
Part of the e-furniture
5" Black 5 just started
Posts: 282
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Post by Neale on Sept 7, 2020 11:27:44 GMT
I'm somewhere in the middle of the debate - for me part of the fun is building my own loco, I want people to look at it and say, "that's a Black 5 and you've got the tender rivets right" without worrying that the handpump takes up the space that should bave a water-scoop. I'm using, very roughly, the criterion that if a detail or feature or fitting is sufficiently delicate that I would worry about using it regularly on my club track, I won't go that far. But the discussion of boiler feed is on my mind. DY says that injectors are enough so no axle pump. I have driven fellow club members' (they are a very friendly bunch!) fairly often and certainly axle pumps are very effective. But when you are sitting there waiting behind someone trying to recover boiler pressure or whatever, it isn't going to fill the boiler. I have once driven a loco (5" B1, so very similar to my in-progress Black 5) which had only one of its two injectors working, but work it certainly did. The boiler level rose faster than I ever would have expected and even if it was slightly more difficult to manage (two taps, not just one, and the occasional tweaking to get it to pick up) I would be happy with something that works that well. I'm really not concerned about whether an axle pump is prototypical or not, just whether it would fit in mechanically and whether it's really needed. Certainly a reliable way to feed a boiler, against the fact that injectors seem to bring out the marmite feelings in their users! If I could be confident of building an injector that worked, and could keep the water supply clean enough to keep it that way... And if all else fails, I flip open the water filler in the tender, fit the pump handle, and use the hidden pump. Ho hum, decisions, decisions...
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Post by coniston on Sept 7, 2020 12:27:47 GMT
I have and have had a right mix of locos with different water feed set ups, my preference is to have hand pump, axel (or cross head) pump and at least one injector. This way you get the best of all worlds. Certainly when letting a novice drive, the axel pump is the best option when on the run and as Neale says an injector is invaluable when stationary. My Simplex has all three, my B1 is as Martin Evans designed it with two injectors and hand pump, my A3 which I am rebuilding has two injectors and an axel pump (twin ram with only one ram driven, the other is unused) I do plan to fit a hand pump as well. There is nothing magical about reliable injectors, as long as you have sufficiently big pipes/valves for the size of injector and as few restrictive bends in the pipework as possible. Feed water should come through a fine filter and a regular clean out with citric acid or vinegar if operating in hard water area (as we do in south Hampshire).
Chris D
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barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 874
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Post by barlowworks on Sept 7, 2020 14:51:59 GMT
Even though I am building quite a complex loco (Britannia) I am a complete novice when it comes to driving and firing so intend to build in as big a safety margin as I can. To that end I have 2 injectors an axle pump and a hand pump in the tender. I will feel a lot happier having this safety margin until I get more proficient and that safety margin is also there for any other novice that may want to drive. On the topic of axle pumps I have often heard of engines surging when the axle pump is pumping into the boiler. Has anyone ever tried a double barrel pump with eccentrics set at 180 degrees but sized to give the same volume. Just a thought.
Mike
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Post by coniston on Sept 7, 2020 20:06:31 GMT
Even though I am building quite a complex loco (Britannia) I am a complete novice when it comes to driving and firing so intend to build in as big a safety margin as I can. To that end I have 2 injectors an axle pump and a hand pump in the tender. I will feel a lot happier having this safety margin until I get more proficient and that safety margin is also there for any other novice that may want to drive. On the topic of axle pumps I have often heard of engines surging when the axle pump is pumping into the boiler. Has anyone ever tried a double barrel pump with eccentrics set at 180 degrees but sized to give the same volume. Just a thought. Mike Clarkson, Henry Greenly and Martin Evans included double barrel axel pumps in a number of their designs. Ok for outside valve gear locos but not so easy with inside ones. Chris D
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Post by John Baguley on Sept 7, 2020 21:03:12 GMT
Yes, I fitted twin pumps to my Helen Long:
I think they are 5/16" bore x 5/16" stroke. This for a 2½" gauge loco. I've never really noticed any difference in the running of the loco whether the bypass is open or closed but they will quickly overfill the boiler if you forget the bypass is closed! Mind you, it has three 7/8" bore cylinders so is very powerful for it's size.
I would always fit twin pumps rather than one single one if possible as they do give smoother running. The much redesigned Simplex that I started building also has twin pumps rather than the double acting one designed by Martin Evans. That's a rather radical design with poppet valves rather than balls and PTFE cup washers instead of the normal ram seals.
Jack Bodenman who posts on one of the American forums made a similar pump but with three rams which would be even better.
If you work it out right you can arrange it so that even if one pump packs up, the other will still supply the boiler but at a reduced rate.
John
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barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 874
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Post by barlowworks on Sept 7, 2020 22:25:22 GMT
Definitely given me something to think about. 😉
Mike
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