encouraging the young

[02jcole]

I left secondary school a year ago and In my final year I managed to get two weeks work experience at a CNC and Manual machine shop. I organised it using my own initiative and the school felt that as I had put such an effort it to it they would allow to to go there. As a result of the work experience I still have a part-time job there and was also offered an apprenticeship.

Thats only my experience though...

James.

[steam4ian]

G'day Havoc

Regarding a simple engine. IMHO the Blowfly design must be about the most direct route to getting on the 5" rails. A couple of simplifications could be bolted frames rather than welded ( I have seem in done) and a marine style boiler like (Sweat Pea).

For smaller scales a Mamod clone would work.

Regarding schools. from my recent experiences they have become the most bureaucratic of all organisations, am I thought they were meant to encourage development of the mind?

Regards,
Ian

[nzlcyclist]

Gidday all.

Long time member here, I have not visited in quite some time. Over the last year or so I have become more and more involved at our local Miniature railway (http://www.hme.co.nz) as I was voted onto the Committee. I am the youngest member at 21, and it concerns me that quite literally our members are going to start passing away - many of our core members are in their late sixties and early seventies and we are not gaining many new members with the exception of a married couple with 2 small kids that have just bought an electric 7.25".

At the moment I am learning from these members, one particular guy builds very large 7.25" steam locos in his shed and he is starting workshop evenings with me. I plan on building a 7.25" Phantom steamer

This is a topic that has not been approached in any official fashion at our club, but I am asking for any advice or ideas as to how we can go about increasing our younger member base, approaching particular avenues or industries. It is all about encouraging the young, but how do we reach out and find these young ones?

Brendon

[havoc]

I am the youngest member at 21, and it concerns me that quite literally our members are going to start passing away - many of our core members are in their late sixties and early seventies and we are not gaining many new members

Same here. We don't even have members as young as you and several of the elders are in their eighties. The most exposure to the young public we have are:
- working together with a technical college. This both by exposing on their open day and having a teacher that is open to build an engine as a project with them at school.
- having our open days as open as possible. The track is in a park open for all.

But even then while sometimes people show interest they rarely join. And mostly it are the 30-40 year old ones that are interested. The younger ones have more interest for things that "go fast".

One thing that does seem to help for another club is having an equiped workshop available. So youngers can work at something without having to lay out for a lathe or mill.

[circlip]

Not going on a flamer with you Havoc cos I know where you're coming from on this one, but the interest/will has got to be there in the youfs. I know it's harping back, but at the time of the LBSC live steam saga, it was every boys ambition to be a train driver, well it was over here, so the general interest in how it works was more prevalent. Very few of todays intellectual kids give a stuff of how things work, it's only the shortest route to enjoyment in most transitory interests. Someone on here referred to not having time to make things as an excuse for kit bashing, and no I'm not having a go on that subject, too many fingertips have been bloodied on that little cherry, and I don't want to build a foundry to cast my own, not with a prototype foundry a couple of hundred yards away, but after all we are supposed to be into Muddle Ingineering aren't we. On a previous reply you mentioned being able to obtain bits from a local shop to be able to complete a project? This ain't going to happen again, not unless you live next door to an existing one, Tinternet has screwed that one, just how much do you want to pay for your bits? Don't forget,it's got to be profitable for someone to set up this type of operation and make a living out of it and possibly raise a family from it. Sad, we seem to forget this when we proudly announce " I've just bought a new digi-whammy from Yang Flo Ching for FAR less than I can buy it over here" You'll probably be surprised to learn that you can obtain raw materials far easier than in the East, cos there so busy exporting it back to us in "Luxury" goods. Can't answer this one Havoc, only thing I can suggest is that if you find a "kid" whose interested, grab him and nurture him, but not too strongly cos you could be accused of being a paedophile. Chr4st, what a state we've got ourselves into. Regards Ian.

[Myford Matt]

Actually, I think some of LBSC's simpler, better known designs are a good start for an beginner. They are tried and tested, come with a comprehensive, if sometimes eccentric description of how to build them and he often designed with the bare minimum of tools in mind. Myrtle is a nice example of this approach (plans posted here Jan 31 last year).

Matt

[havoc]

Not going on a flamer with you Havoc cos I know where you're coming from on this one

Don't see why this would raise flames. But I don't see where I come from on this...care to fill me in?

Anyway I agree on your point about different interests then and now. It certainly plays a role. We have old railway men in the club having driven themselves 1:1 steam engines.

About the internet...don't know really. I think the shops with a closed mindset will disappear and those that embrace it will survive. Not by selling more but by compensating declining local custom with selling in a wider area. Thanks to the internet I can do this! I now can easily buy brass and phosporbronze in the UK in small quantities. There isn't a single shop in belgium willing to do this.

Actually, I think some of LBSC's simpler, better known designs are a good start for an beginner.

Probably they are. But I see 3 problems with them:
- availability: due to their age they are not widely available. It isn't a problem once you have contacts in the ME world but they aren't very visible to new blood.
- up-to-date-ness: they should be brought up to date to current materials, sizes of stock materials, references of bought in bits and construction techniques.
- there should be metric versions of them. This might be not a problem in the UK/US but in the rest of the world it is a problem. I cannot go out and buy 1/2" copper tube, gauge 12 plate, BA screws and number 41 drills. It is hard enough to find MF6 taps.

Specially the last 2 are something that keep beginners from these plans. If you have years of shop experience and are an accomplished model builder you go light over that. But if the first plan you get in your hands is in chinese... I'm now reading the "Netta" plans and this is going to be complete redesign: everything to metric, new boiler to current codes, simplification where possible...

[Myford Matt]

Hi Havoc

I pretty much agree with all your points for someone who is attempting to get into ME solo, but for someone who is a member of a club or has a parent/friend/mentor these problems would be less of a hurdle.

That said, it would be nice to see an updated metric Myrtle-type project.

Matt

[circlip]

Mentioned flamer Havoc, cos here we go again down the well worn track of whinging about outdated designs again, and how the poor newbies have a hard time learning. You've NEVER had it easier, all you have to do is bash a few keystrokes, press a button and within a very short time, not like the snail mail we were brought up on, get some nutter like myself to bite and put their neck on the block with a usually valid reply. Metric designs - The first job I used to do when I started building Borderer was to take a fortnightly trip to the photocopier, reprint the plan articles and convert all the dimensions into Metric, Why? cos I had a Metric lathe and also felt more comfortable working with solid numbers rather than 7/16" and then converting to decimals. I mention fractions cos before we were all affluent enough to afford mics (NOT DRO's) we used to work in fractions of an inch and STILL managed to make fair representations of the full size and get them to work.
You want Metric designs? Look on some of the continental sites, there will be plenty, you want metric British designs? get off yer butt and load them into Auto cad or Turbo cad or whatever and press the metric change button. You'll still have to trim some of the dimensions to make them sensible, or is someone else going to have to do it? Modernize the designs? Steam principles STILL apply so how do you want them modernizing? Haven't seen any transistors or resistors running inside tubes to make a seal. I'll bet that by looking around and in true muddle ingineering tradition I could find the bits to make a steam engine out of scrap over in Belgium.
How many "Kids" started in this hobby in the 30's to 70's with their own workshop machinery? and how many did it on the kitchen table? An old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way" Don't bleat about encouraging the young to "Get interested" cos if you've to attract their interest, it's only a passing phase anyway and if they want to do it enough they will find a way.

[havoc]

I guess this is the last time I reply to one of your rants.

Look on some of the continental sites, there will be plenty

Well then, find me one that is suitable for a beginner. You do seem to forget that this is a very UK centric hobby.

Modernize the designs? Steam principles STILL apply so how do you want them modernizing?

Like making a boiler that will pass current regulations. If I make what is on those plans it isn't even going to be inspected. Or are you one of those that don't care about safety? Probly also never even imagined that UK boiler regulations have no validity whatever outside the UK. Also like doing away with castings that haven't been available for more than half a century. I tought you didn't want to start a foundry, well neither do I.

I'll bet that by looking around and in true muddle ingineering tradition I could find the bits to make a steam engine out of scrap over in Belgium.

You'l have hard luck getting into a scrap yard. Ever heard of safety regulations: you do not enter.

And if you have converted a plan to metric why didn't you do anything with it to further the hobby? Put it away so you could be smug to others?

[steam4ian]

G'day Brendon.

I will stand aside from the fire storm created by my two learned friends. I note your Gidday which I guess is Kiwi for the Ozzie "Gud-die"; any way "Guddie meet" ;D

Like you I am concerned at the aging of the fraternity. At my club SASMEE we had a film night showing some club events of long ago and a bloke beside quipped that those members looked old. True but the people now holding office in the club were the young men in the old film.

I think clubs need to appear less exclusive. Not that we set out to be. But beautifully prepared models etc can seem off putting to those with limited or basic skills. Maybe our displays should also include the crude, like "McCabe's Runners", and other items built with minimal tooling and skill just to encourage a broader participation.

I wonder how many clubs have a membership growth policy or even recognise it as a problem? Do clubs have a place for the cheque book engineers? Do the clubs encourage non loco owners to learn to drive and participate in other open day activities?

Nuff said.

Regards,
Ian

[SteveW]

Guys,

It occurs to add that my club have a set of "Health and Safety" inspired rules that prevent all but 'grown-ups' from driving the toys unless under heavy supervision.

When I did Air Cadet Gliding all you needed was one grown up and four sixteen year olds to put one of them on his own out of reach at a thousand feet for five or more minutes.

Even the club workshop is effectively out of bounds to any lone modeler, of any age, for fear of finding the wet bits still spinning around on a Sunday morning. The problem is, there's a certain sense to this restriction. Another problem is introducing the young to the potential dangers of the hobby without leaving any permanent marks.

However, perhaps the biggest problem now is determining the motives of anyone wishing to take the time to transfer the knowledge of a life time to any young person. If the knowledge is lost, it's lost forever.

[freddo]

After WWII many families were seriously impoverished (mine was) and availability of new articles much restricted. It therefore became almost mandatory to make-do and mend virtually everything from appliances to clothes. Hence most houses had a workbench of sorts in a shed or room in the house (ours was in the cupboard under the stairs), along with a collection of hand tools. So as kids, we learnt from our fathers / uncles whatever, and the girls learnt to cook, knit, sew etc - how many girls these days could knit a sweater? And anyway, who would be willing to wear a home-made jumper?

How many young fathers of today can even change a tap washer, far less have the time and patience to show their offspring how to do it - and again - how many taps have replaceable innards nowadays?

In yesteryear, a lot of youngsters learnt primitive engineering by repairing an old motorbike or bicycle - what kids would be seen dead on a secondhand bike these days? We had a branch of our school cadet force which, under the "guidance" of the R.E.M.E. showed us how to strip down an old car to the last nut and bolt, recondition, paint and label every part, then reassemble it and make it a running chassis on which we learnt primitive driving skills - but Morris 8's and Austin 7's are no longer available for that sort of venture.

We geriatrics knew, and were awe-inspired by full-size steam machines, and many of us retained our childhood fascination for the fire-breathing monsters.

Like the flint arrowhead makers, we're gonna die out!

As an aside, did anyone else spot this on the web? I wonder if this old codger was a model engineer:-

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3591734.ece

Freddo

[alanstepney]

Firstly, the world, or our little part of it, has changed dramatically over the lifetime of must of us "old codgers".

By the time I was 8, I had built a crystal set and a 1 valve radio, with the aid of my father. And learned to handle tools, plus burnt myself in the process.
Tools were moderately familiar, partly from playing with Meccano, and also from watching and helping my father and other relatives working on cars, including the regular decoking that they then needed.
Soon after that a relative who was a plumber taught me to wipe lead pipe joints, using a petrol blowlamp.

Later, but only in my early teens, I used to wander along to my local model engineering society, and several of the "old men", finding I was genuinely interested, used to take me to their homes and show me how to operate machine tools, and make parts on lathes etc. As many were retured time-served engineers, I learned a lot from these guys.

I cannot see any of these things happening today.
As for the last paragraph, anyone doing anything similar today would be asking for trouble. Indeed many of todays parents would be horrified at youngsters operaing machinery that didnt have all the H & S guarding that everyone is told is so essential.

Secondly, yes we do need to encourage the younger element to this hobby.

However, because times have changed, it needs to be done in ways that are acceptable, both to society, and to their parents.
(Many of whom wont have a clue about the hobby, tools, or anything else.)

Clubs can help to bridge the gap, as well as earn themselves oft-needed local public support.
Mini exhibitions, and links to local schools who can use the club as a resource for teaching history, are ways of generating initial interest.

Those youngsters who are interested should be encouraged, and perhaps a formalised "system" within the club should be set up.
Driving a loco, initially electric or "diesel" under supervision, and when not carrying members of the public, are two ways to maintain interest.
What is certain is that some way needs to be found as many clubs NEED a younger element.

As for the designs, yes some of the older designs could be modified and redrawn in metric, and that might be an advantage to some.
However, starting from scratch with new designs is probably easier and could be better.

As for some of the previous posts, it is interesting to see the varied opinions.
I wont say that I agree or disagree with any of them, but do like reading what peple think.

[Richmond]

Since my last post on this subject I have been canvassing opinion from some of my "younger" friends, relatives, and parents thereof.

The concensus about the hobby can be abbreviated as follows :

1) It's for "old" men

2 ) It is hard work, with no "immediate" results

3) Machines are dangerous

4 ) Mum and Dad wouldnt let me

5 ) Computer games are "better"

6 ) Where can I buy "kits" ( read screw together )

7 ) I cant afford the machinery

8 ) I cant afford the time, I have a family and kids, and a job.

9 ) My g/f would dump me, then tell my mates I am "sad", then euthenase me to put me out of my misery

10 ) Fast and modern is better

11 ) I will not let my kids spend the evening in some old mans shed, you never know what might happen.

12 ) It is NOT cool

13 ) Kids need to be with people their own age, not old men.

Gents, we are fighting not just an uphill battle, but an impossible one. I think we have to let people find their own way. Whilst we have to continue advertising our "wares", and being accessible, we need to let them come to us in their own time.

Rgds
Keith

[Myford Matt]

funluva22 said:

Since my last post on this subject I have been canvassing opinion from some of my "younger" friends, relatives, and parents thereof.


11 ) I will not let my kids spend the evening in some old mans shed, you never know what might happen.

Change your avatar? ;D

[houstonceng]

Reference #11

At our club committee meeting tomorrow, we're going to discuss the effect of the UK's "Safeguarding Vulnerable Froups (SVA) Act 2006" on the activities of our Mod.Eng.Society

The Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies has sent out a letter on the subject - after contacting the relevant Parlimentary Under-secretary of State.

It would appear that, should a person "frequently or intensively (defined as more than 2 days in a 30 day period) undertake teaching, training, instructing caring for or supervising children (ie anyone under 18 years old) where this is not incidental to the same activity in relation to adults", they will be guilty of a criminal offence unless they have pre-registered with the Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA) and undergone a check into their personal history and possible criminal record.

So, it looks like trying to teach children to do anything - unless they're part of a group with adults - is going to be almost impossible for the average Model Engineer (unless they are previously registered via a school, tech. college, scouts, etc.)

We're wondering how we stand for "Public Running".

Isn't it sad that society has come to the stage where drachonian laws like this a thought to be needed to protect children ?

[havoc]

So, it looks like trying to teach children to do anything - unless they're part of a group with adults - is going to be almost impossible for the average Model Engineer (unless they are previously registered via a school, tech. college, scouts, etc.)

Wouldn't the "unless they are part of a group with adults" cover you when they are member of the same club as he adults?

[houstonceng]

"Wouldn't the "unless they are part of a group with adults" cover you when they are member of the same club as he adults?"

That's our surrent thought in relation to Public Running and/or normal Club Meetings. However, some time back, we tried to interest some youngsters in MEng by hetting them to build simple 5" gauge electric locos. Obviously, progress was slow when they could only do it on Sunday mornings at the Club and it would have been good to gave had, say, a couple of lads at a time use facilities in a few workshops of willing MEs. Definitely a No-no unless registered.

Then you have to look at what the interpretation of the law would be if, say, the Chairman was regularly (every Sunday morning) instructing a group of lads in the club workshop when all the other adult club-members were out in the grounds - or even in the club-room - doing maintenance, boiler bashing, testing, talking and drinking tea (ie usual Sunday morninh Club activities) but not part of the supervision. What if more than one Adult - not related to the lads in question - was supervising ?

We believe that this comes under the act because, as the S'Fed letter qiotes: "If the society had a specific project targeted at children where members frequently supervised the children, then they would again be engaged in regulated activity"

Maybe, the only way out is to either register OR make sure that each Junior Member's Parent(s) were part of the group and also built a loco under the same supervision.

[alanstepney]

What a sad society we live in these days.