tbsteam
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Posts: 231
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Post by tbsteam on Feb 19, 2008 19:38:19 GMT
I have just bought some plans(books) on how to build a 3 1/2" gauge Princess Marina and Betty the mongoliper both by L.B.S.C. Hopefully i will be getting some sort of work bench if and when i get my own way.lol. Anyway, i am planning on buiding the princess but just wanted to know whether it is good for a beginner?
Cheers tb
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denis M
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Posts: 300
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Post by denis M on Feb 19, 2008 21:42:43 GMT
tb,
From someone who has been doing this silly hobby for a good few years, my advice would be to start on a Sweet Pea. Large enough to make a few mistakes and you will have something at the end that goes well and pulls passengers.
Down side is that its bigger and heavier.
Denis
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Post by daveburrage on Feb 19, 2008 22:34:55 GMT
I've built both the Princess Marina and the Sweet Pea. I would agree with Denis that the Sweet Pea is the best beginners loco if you can cope with the weight and cost. It's simple and tolerant of mistakes and less than perfect workmanship. That said, Princess Marina isn't a bad choice as regards chassis and tender, but the boiler is far more complex than a Sweet Pea. It's not a serious club passenger hauler either.
Good luck whatever your choice.
regards
Dave burrage
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tbsteam
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 231
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Post by tbsteam on Feb 19, 2008 22:49:05 GMT
I think i would still like to build the princess first as a sweat pea would be to heavy and it costs quite a lot more. As for the boiler, i can get one ready built instead of getting a kit which would save me mucking that up.lol. At the moment, funds are quite low too (was made redundant a couple of weeks ago)so i want something fairly cheap to build but want something that looks good too.
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tbsteam
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Posts: 231
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Post by tbsteam on Feb 20, 2008 8:41:47 GMT
I have just had an email from the seller and he is including another book on Mona a tank engine. Anybody know what this one is like?
Cheers tb
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Post by ilvaporista on Feb 20, 2008 9:38:37 GMT
Mona and Molly were quite similar. I started with a Molly over 20 years ago and it's still no more than a set of frames and some parts. Not an easy first loco.
If you can manage 5" I would suggest that you go that route. Dougal is another simple basic loco.
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Post by alanstepney on Feb 20, 2008 10:02:18 GMT
I like the smaller LBSC designed loco's. Most were designed with the beginner in mind, and due to the era in which they were designed, dont assume a lot of equipment or tooling.
In addition, follow the "words and music" and you will end up with a working engine. OK, it may not be prototypical and some of the purists may not like some features, but a working engine is FAR better than an incomplete pile of bits under the bench.
As a general rule, the one thing that is worth checking is that boiler details are up to todays standards (bushes rather than just tapping into the boiler shell).
I rate Juliet as THE ideal first loco. Simple, works well, quick and easy to build, and will haul 2-3 people. Tich is too small, and the larger engines, such as Princess and Betty, I always feel are better as a second effort not a first.
As for Molly, not much more difficult than Juliet, and it can be modified to look more accurate to BR or LMS, if you wish. Mona I cannot comment upon as I havent built one, but from what I have seen, it doesnt appear to have any particular snags.
Whilst your inclination may be towards the larger engines, it is usually a good idea to start small and simple and work up.
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Post by ron on Feb 20, 2008 10:05:07 GMT
Hi tb What about a Simplex, personally I think 5" is a better size for beginners and it also makes a better size model when complete, I'm well on the way to completing one, it's my first loco and I can't say I've found anything about it particularly difficult, some of it's quite boring but I suppose you get that with any loco! There is also plenty knowledge of it about, I've had good help from people on here. You can see some pics down in the Simplex section. Ron
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Post by teakfreak on Feb 20, 2008 10:08:09 GMT
The other 5" gauge design I suggest looking at is David Malcolm's "Scamp" - I have just started building ng one with my 10 year old son as a first project for him. It makes into a light enough loco for one person to carry fairly easily, unlike a "Sweet Pea" or "Simplex" (which is anything but!), but is still a proper load hauling engine on the track.
Drawings and castings for Scamp are available from Reeves, but we're aiming to hack ours from solid wherever possible. A cheaper way of getting the drawings would be to collect the back issues of Engineering in Miniature - perhaps someone else can help with a record of which ones you would need. If you have access to a photocopier you can probably blow them up to a more legible size.
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tbsteam
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 231
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Post by tbsteam on Feb 20, 2008 10:28:27 GMT
I would like to build a 5" but don't have the space at the moment.
I would love to build a 9f in 5" or Flying scotsman or Mallard but all 3 of those are a bit out of my leahue at the moment.lol.
I think i would build the 3 1/2" loco, use it a few times and then sell it to fund the next project.
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kingsteam9
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Post by kingsteam9 on Feb 20, 2008 10:42:04 GMT
Just another idea - how about building the 3 1/2" gauge version of Sweet Pea - 'Sweet Violet'? Basically the same foolproof (well almost) design and a more easily handled weight when complete. The examples I've seen have been good, but at the size aren't serious passenger haulers. I've got a set of the drawings with the intention of building one, one day when the list of diy jobs shortens (!!).
Robin
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Post by houstonceng on Feb 20, 2008 16:32:09 GMT
tbsteam Since you're having so many problems with Silver Soldering - and we've all been there (or near there) as we learnt our hobby - you are where I was many moons ago. So I'd suggest two things :- 1. Make your first loco a simple one "Sweet-pea/Metre Maid in 5" gauge or Sweet Violet in 3.5" gauge. You'll get a loco capable of pulling a good load that - as others have said - is reasonably tolerant of less than perfect workmanship. There's a growing Discussion Group on Yahoo Groups and a very good description of building one at www.carnoustie47.freeserve.co.uk/index.htmDespite the name, "Simplex" is more complicated to make and "Tich" is a waste of time (too small). There are too many 9Fs, 4472s, Mallards, etc, started and not finished. Don't add to the pile. 2. Join a Model Engineering Society. Even if yoi can't get along to every meeting, I'm sure that ypu'll meet a few members who will be willing to share knowledge. If it's anything like the one I'm a member of, you can also borrow the odd tool (from the Club or another member)that you only want once in a lifetime. For example, a left-hand 3/8" BSP tap, RH version of same, bit of tool-steel over christmas, etc.
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Post by ron on Feb 20, 2008 20:25:06 GMT
Hi Andy Have you built a Simplex? if you have which parts did you find complicated? I'm asking this because before I started mine I kept hearing things like 'he should have called it Complex' etc but as I've already posted I didn't find it difficult or complicated at all. Only thing I would advise the OP is to build a couple of Stuart Turner engines or similar before building a loco to get a feel for things. Ron
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Post by houstonceng on Feb 20, 2008 23:53:36 GMT
Ron
Haven't built one but have helped someone who did. Just the usual problems. Errors still on drawings, blow-downs on boiler not aligned with holes in chassis (even though both to drawing) and a few areas where a beginer might wonder if he can change a dimension or three.
One of the things that comes from experience, is knowing what parts have to be accurately made (or even what part of what parts) - and what don't.
Good advice to build a few Stationary models first. Even, as has been suggested, just solder some scrap together.
My skill at soft-soldering was gained (starting at about 6 years old) with a copper "soldering bolt" heated in the domestic open fire and then using Baker's Fluid in a stone marmalade jar and a stick of Tinman's Solder, I learnt to make joints using tinned steel from food cans and oil cans (Castrol quart tins). After that, soldering with an Electric Iron and cored solder in the early days of my chosen profession was a doddle. First goes at Silver-soldering were with a paraffin blowlamp, flat strips of S'solder and borax as flux. After that, Propane torches hold no threats.
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Post by ron on Feb 21, 2008 10:20:20 GMT
Andy You're right about the drawings, even the latest set have mistakes but are a lot better than the originals, a grouse I've posted before, M Evans may have been a good loco designer but he or whoever did his drawings was a poor draftsman, least by any standards I was taught. Main thing that bugs me is the number of parts that you need to add up all the sizes to get the overall size, basic bad draftsmanship which leaves room for mistakes, however drawings aside I still think there is nothing in a Simplex that a beginner couldn't manage. Ron
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Post by AndrewP on Feb 21, 2008 10:58:13 GMT
Ron If you have the errors documented you might drop Alan Stepney a line. He has an errata section on his website which might just save future builders some heartache. www.alanstepney.info/page45.htmlI discovered it just in time for my Rob Roy and was very glad I did! Unless Andy wants to start such a section of course.
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Uzzy
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Post by Uzzy on Feb 21, 2008 12:49:38 GMT
I can't realy add anything to this other than I am still trying to build a "Tich" but must admit the more I talk to people the more I learn its not really a beginners model and that maybe I should have started at 5" not so fiddley, It might be an idea to keep an eye on "ebay" I just picked up a boiler kit for "Tich" at a shade over £50
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 13:31:51 GMT
Hi
I get the impression from the type of engines that Tom is thinking about that he likes the bigger mainline type of loco, rather than narrow gauge or small tank engines. I am like this too, I like the big locos, preferably A3's and A4's, but building one is not ideal as a first effort.
If Tom would prefer a smaller scale big engine rather than a bigger scale small engine then one of the LBSC designs would be ideal.
The designs such as princess marina and maisie, are very simple, and there is not much to them other than the bits that make them work. It is amazing how much time it takes to make things like brake gear and all the little details that you get on more modern designs.
Also Tom it may be worth looking at part built projects on ebay, there is a princess marina on there at the moment,(no connection, just as an example) it is only part started really, but if you think of it as a set of castings, some of which have been part machined, at a lot less than if you buy them from Reeves or whoever you would get them from. If you think of a part built as just a pile of parts, take it to pieces, and assemble it as if you were building from scratch, some parts will be ok to use as is, some may be a bit rough and need finishing better and some will be scrap and need to be remade, and the remaining parts will need making. The worst case is were castings have been badly machined and there is not enough metal to correct any faults, so they may be scrap. I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting anything part built, and we'll get into the make it, buy it, kit build, cheque book engineering thing again. Very few of us start completley from scratch, We buy drawings, castings, boilers, boiler fittings, laser cut parts etc. I am just suggesting that apart build project can be a bargain way of getting the raw materials for a project.
Slightly changing the subject, Tom you mention a work bench and a lathe, just wondered what equipment you have available?
Anyway enough of my ramblings cheers Trevor
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Post by alanstepney on Feb 21, 2008 13:42:37 GMT
Ron If you have the errors documented you might drop Alan Stepney a line. He has an errata section on his website which might just save future builders some heartache. www.alanstepney.info/page45.htmlI discovered it just in time for my Rob Roy and was very glad I did! Unless Andy wants to start such a section of course. I am always glad to get more input, which, as Andrew said, can help other builders avoid problems and perhaps expense.
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tbsteam
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 231
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Post by tbsteam on Feb 21, 2008 14:23:40 GMT
Hi I get the impression from the type of engines that Tom is thinking about that he likes the bigger mainline type of loco, rather than narrow gauge or small tank engines. I am like this too, I like the big locos, preferably A3's and A4's, but building one is not ideal as a first effort. If Tom would prefer a smaller scale big engine rather than a bigger scale small engine then one of the LBSC designs would be ideal. The designs such as princess marina and maisie, are very simple, and there is not much to them other than the bits that make them work. It is amazing how much time it takes to make things like brake gear and all the little details that you get on more modern designs. Also Tom it may be worth looking at part built projects on ebay, there is a princess marina on there at the moment,(no connection, just as an example) it is only part started really, but if you think of it as a set of castings, some of which have been part machined, at a lot less than if you buy them from Reeves or whoever you would get them from. If you think of a part built as just a pile of parts, take it to pieces, and assemble it as if you were building from scratch, some parts will be ok to use as is, some may be a bit rough and need finishing better and some will be scrap and need to be remade, and the remaining parts will need making. The worst case is were castings have been badly machined and there is not enough metal to correct any faults, so they may be scrap. I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting anything part built, and we'll get into the make it, buy it, kit build, cheque book engineering thing again. Very few of us start completley from scratch, We buy drawings, castings, boilers, boiler fittings, laser cut parts etc. I am just suggesting that apart build project can be a bargain way of getting the raw materials for a project. Slightly changing the subject, Tom you mention a work bench and a lathe, just wondered what equipment you have available? Anyway enough of my ramblings cheers Trevor You have figured me out. I like main line locos on a small scale although i am also looking at buying a speedy book. The tools i have are a little unimat lathe, grinder, loads of tools. I know that i can't build a loco from what i have got but my grandad has got everything i would need because he has got everything and anything that is steam. I have seen that princess on ebay and would love it but don't have enough money at the moment.
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