Advice on Riveting wanted.

[brozier]

Hiya Folks,

I've just joined the site so I suppose I should introduce myself.

I started building my first loco just before Christmas. It's "Spencer" a War Department Hunslet 4-6-0 Narrow Gauge engine. I'm building it in 3.5" gauge from the articles in ME.

I bought the castings, boiler formers and marked out frames off that ebay

Anyway I'm assembling the buffer beams at the moment which are riveted with 3/16" 'soft iron' rivets purchased from Reeves 2000.

I used the same sized rivets when attaching the horn blocks and was surprised at the amount of force required to form them. I seem to end up damaging the work piece each time I try this.

Despite them being countersunk I had to make the three shaped sets normally used with a dome head to get anything like a successful joint. Just using a ball-pein hammer would fold the rivet in half.

How do you hold hold the work piece level over the rivet set held in a vice?

Should I be heating the rivets to make them softer?

Any other advice? I want to do a tidy job as the rivets are a real feature of the beams...

Cheers
Bryan

[Tel]

Sounds to me like you have far too much rivet protruding from the hole - snip 'em off so that the 'free length' is about 1.5 diameters long. I just use ordinary side cutters for this and after a while you get to be a very close judge of how much you need.

Now - the ball end of a ball pein will work just fine but DON'T BASH 'EM!!!! Gentle taps to ease the metal down to where you want it is the order of the day.

[Tel]

Oh, and, excuse my ignorance - WELCOME mate

[Jo]

Hi Bryan,

Welcome to the fold!

Lets be honest you will be lucky to find any iron rivets. Most of the so called Iron ones are steel and they do not soften when you heat them.

The secret to good riveting is a firm work piece mounting: mounting a rivet set in the vice makes life difficult. I normally end up making a set out of a piece of bar and the mounting that in the vice and firmly clamping the work piece to the bar.

Then slow and steady, the more skilled members would describe that you dome the end of the rivet by hitting in a circular pattern the rivet tail with a ball pein. The floating set being used to create a nice finish on the tail.

But honestly it is easier said than done. And as for the expression "riveting isn't it?": try hand riveting over 300 1/8" Iron rivets.....I can tell you it isn't.

Jo

[ilvaporista]

I go with what Jo says as well. Don't attempt to bash the rivets in two hits use many hits and work round to fold over the material until you get almost to shape then use the floating set to form the head. Of course you need the extra hand to hold the frames, set and hammer... I tend to rest the furthest end of the part on a suitable block so you get the frame held level with the top of the set. Then use the floating set to form the shape.

If you are a real cheat then you use the formed domed head on the outside and use a press (old car hydaulic jack) to make a flat head on the rear into a slight countersink. But never let on to anyone you did it that way and don't do it where it can be seen.

If you are feeling really lazy(!!) try this..

homepage.ntlworld.com/corromant/Movies/MVI_1020.AVI

Link from Conrads' great site
www.burrell-engine-builder.co.uk/

Edit

Forgot to add the welcome.... Too busy thinking rivets and not enough about being a human being.... All the best

[dickdastardly40]

Bryan,

Welcome! Check out this gentleman's site as regards rivets and a great deal else besides:

birkpetersens.blogspot.com/2008/02/more-rivets.html

He advocates the of a rivet press which seems to make sense providing you have room to get in. I have't done any rivetting since school so can offer no more I'm afraid.

Al

[freddo]

G'day Bryan

From my limited self generated experience, the comment I haven't noticed is the weight of the ball pein - use a hefty one. I never use one less than 2lb and it makes rivetting simple - a light-weight one just bounces around and dents the surrounding metal.

Just my own observations.

[waggy]

Hello Bryan,

If you can get somebody to hold the work for you or set it up in some form of clamp, you will have both hands free and will be able to use a pin punch and hammer to form the rivet. This method gives you far greater control of the area you want to form as the punch is put in contact before you swing the hammer. It's just like carving but the end result differs.

Regards,

Waggy.

[brozier]

Thanks for all the advice, I particularly liked the video of using and SDS drill as a riveting hammer ;D

I think I need to rethink how I hold the work and lower set, I was hoping to avoid making a lower set but don't think I can avoid it. Clamping looks to be the way forward.

Looks like I am still leaving the rivets too long as well.

I did try using my flypress but keeping everything aligned was impossible. The handheld rivet presses look interesting to.

Thanks folks that will give me food for thought.

Cheers
Bryan

[yorkshireman]

I use this thing:
www.berliner-eisenbahn.de/assets/images/BR74_000119.jpg
Little air-chisel modified to be an airpowered rivet-tool. Once you have learned to use it, it works fine. Maximum rivet size I did with this tool, was 3 mm.
Or I use this:
www.wdef.de/images/nietzags.jpg

Johannes

[steammadman]

a couple of tips not yet mentioned; after cutting the rivets to length a couple of sharp but firm taps with the hammer face,this just tightens the rivet in the hole, then using a hollow punch
tap the parts together,tighten up,remove hollow punch, and follow with another couple of smart blows
with the hammer face,(smart taps not almighty blows),now start to form the dome head with
the ball head of your hammer,as has already been said, gentle but firm blows,when the dome head starts to form ,then, you can use your snaps, or hammer drill to form a tidy head.
REMEMBER GENTLY GENTLY CATCHES THE MONKEY
GOOD LUCK HAPPY RIVETING

[Steve M. W]

Welcome Bryan
Glad you found the site keep us postrd on your progress.

Steve

[daveburrage]

I've had no problems softening rivets. Heat to red heat and cool slowly. We have an open fire and I usually put the rivets in a closed box (a length of tube with the ends hammered closed) to minumise scaling. Drop in the fire last thing at night and retrieve next day when the fire is cool. This effectively softens hard rivets.
It also works for the hard skin on laser profiles.

Heating rivets packed around with firebrick might work just as well.

regards

Dave Burrage

[3405jimmy]

Having just spent three weekends riveting up forty rivets I can now comment with in depth experience of what not to do. As if there was any possibility of getting it wrong I have done it on one or more of the dammed things recently.

First thing to do is get the rivet the right length that will help to sort out the bending problem

If you follow this link www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/ then on the tabs along the top go say solid rivets > Round or snap head > small imperial they give a table showing the setting allowance for all the common sizes. BTW the tabs don’t show up if your using Firefox as a browser, well they didn’t in mine.

So now that’s sorted forget the snap use the hammer either the flat head or the ball to start things off work the rivet to get the head forming, don’t try and form it with one magic blow of the snap and hammer. Just use the snap to finish things off that way you should end up with a good round head.

Oh I also used two hammers a small 4oz one to do the starting off, then when it came to using the snap a 1lb-er to deliver the knock out blow.

Jim

[Tel]

Indeed, you can't hit small objects with big 'ammers - well, you can but ....

I have a 6oz and an 8 oz on the bench that do the bulk of my work

[SteveW]

Guys,

I looked through the above excellent advice but I'll add the version I picked up at school:

Rivet Length: You need enough sticking out to contain the volume necessary to form the head at the beaten end. If you're going for a flush finish counter sink the parent metal. Over do the length a bit and finish with a file. If you want a domed head the maths are a bit trickier, it's just a volume thing.

If the rivet head is domed it'll need supporting in the correctly sized rivet snap. Use a similar snap to complete the other side if you're going for a dome.

DON'T counter sink the inside surfaces, maybe avoid removing the inner burs. The problem is that as the rivet expands it can force the two parts apart.

Bolt or otherwise secure the two part to be riveted else they'll separate. It's sometimes worth a first whack to fatten the rivet and tighten the joint and then using a hollow punch over the rivet squeeze the pieces together with a couple of whacks before proceeding.

Have a good fitting hole else it'll wander.

Tip: if you just want to hold two bits of metal together try a couple of nails, prepared as above, and rivet (nail) the bits together.

[albertsell]

Hello Brozier and welcome.
I have read all the above and agree with most,but here is my experiance with my 6ins. Ruston wheels 140- 0.25ins iron?? rivets.Good reasonably sized vice holding a dolly made from 1ins OD steel with hollow end made with a round nosed milling cutter to fit rivet head-a second dolly similar for knocking down.Wheels balanced on the dolly in the vice with two further supports of timber on the bench. Rivets cut to suitable length and knocked down with a 4lbs lump hammer using as much force as I could each took 11 blows. I should point out that I was rivetting 2 times 5/16ins thick steel and the wheels weighed over 0.5 cwt. each
Good luck and hammering Albert

[brozier]

Hi Guys,

Thought you might like an update.

I've just put in 5 rivets in a row and didn't swear once!

I was leaving them too long. But the real issue was clamping, I ended up with a 2" x 1" x 12" block of steel held in the vice jaws, drilled to hold the lower domed set. The set was grounded firmly on the vice and the business end protrouded just enough to give clearance.

I clamped my buffer beams to the steel block with tool makers clamps and this meant I could use both hands to form the countersink head.

Much happier now thanks for all the advice. I'll definitely look at the SDS drill option when I get round to starting "Minnie"!

Cheers
Bryan

[Tel]

Glad we could help Bryan.

Albert - your job sounds like it's just on the point of needing hot rivets.

[albertsell]

Hello Tel,
Yes I agree, the only problem I found was getting the hot rivet from the heat to the riviting position, by the time it was there it was near enough cold - so why bother using the heat, also I did not find the job too strenuous, I did the job in short bursts with a rest type job in between.
Bye Albert