EBay Sale

[silverfox]

looking through the live steam section and found this one (just above a part built winson A3)

110231890109

As a moving steam loco and engineering it looks OK , BUT as a model of a A2/1 it is way off

differences too numerous

Wrong tender (although they did run with 6 wheelers at first, but no deflectors, and shape wrong (high sided 6 wheeler? Nooooo)

Front end wrong

cylinders in Wrong place (should be between last bogie wheel and leading driver)

Driving wheels look to be 6 ft 8 instead of 6 ft 2


Deflectors wrong

etc

Nice model but i would not say it was an A2 perhaps an A1 with a lot of rebuilding and new 8 wheel tender

This brings me to the question

Why do we as model engineers fail to take enough research into the model we are building, esp one that has a prototype.
This is a prime example, no doubt the workmanship is excellent, but is it a spoiled model for the reasons shown above.
There is also the vexed question of painting and numbers, how many do you see running with incorrect livery/wrong size and positioning of numbers. It makes my BP rise, BUT then i remember it is their engine and they can do with itwhat they like, the qustion still remains, WHY?

My B17 will not win any medals when it is finished, but i have the weighbook from the NRM, a works drawing of the mainframe and the GA of the tender, and Yeadons book is well thumbed as well as the power of the B17s and i am going to bust a gut to make sure that if it is on the loco and can be seen , then it will be on mine.

I hope he gets what he is asking , but it is a bit of a mongrel.
Would rather have the part built A3... cheaper too

Any observations?

[alanstepney]

Although I can see your point, I feel that it is very much an individual opinion.

I have built several LBSC designs, and whilst they work well, no-one would claim that they are correct to prototype.

I can admire engines, such as, for example Chris Vine's, or Cherry Hill's, most of us build something that WE like, and many are quite happy with something that is superficially similar to whatever-it-is, and arent worried about details.

IMHO, there is room for all sorts in our hobby.

[stantheman]

This sort of question is often asked and various thoughts given. You do of course give one answer yourself, it is the individuals locomotive, and they can do with it what they want, and finish it in whatever colour scheme they wish. I caused the same debate with the 'Britannia' I brought back from Canada. Chosing to commemorate the original builder, a great long term friend of mine, by naming the locomotive after him, and fulfilling another long term desire of mine by painting it black. By doing this I feel I am putting my own stamp on the (my) locomotive, one which was not built at Derby or any other railway workshop, but by me and my friend in our own workshops half a world apart. Whatever the model ends up like it will have been hand built from scratch and hopefully will give me and our families a great deal of pleasure.
Stantheman.

[JohnP]

As Alan says, it's down to personal opinion.

We've got a Martin Evans Enterprise (LNER 2-6-2T) at our club that's painted in a Midland maroon. I couldn't have done that. The guy that built it obviously prefers the colour and since it's his loco, then that's fine.

Does anybody remember the outcry when the Severn Valley painted one half of City of Truro in BR black BEFORE it went in for overhaul? They kept the negatives safe until the loco was finished and released them instead of the ones showing the loco after the overhaul.

JohnP

[havoc]

I don't see the problem with a model. On the other hand, painting a loc that sits in a museum in a color that it has never worn in real life is another issue. But there you have a tracable history. With a model the only history it has is from the workshop of a model engineer to a model track. Just be happy someone build it and runs it.

[baggo]

I suppose you could have a gripe about the description of the loco which seems to be incorrect. 60507 Highland Chieftain was actually a Thompson A2/1 whereas the loco appears to be a Peppercorn A1 or A2 (not sure which of the two). But as said before, it's up to the individual as to what they do with their own engine.

That's one advantage of building a freelance - you can do what you like as there's no original to compare it with ;D

John

[mmaidnz]

If you're talking of scale,models are always going to be a compromise.Will your "scale "loco have absolute scale size fasteners and fittings?.No.Then it is not "true" scale.
I would be more interested to know if it can be made into an actual working loco.That is after all why they are built.
The overall impression is what counts,IMHO.

[chameleonrob]

baggo said:

I suppose you could have a gripe about the description of the loco which seems to be incorrect. 60507 Highland Chieftain was actually a Thompson A2/1 whereas the loco appears to be a Peppercorn A1 or A2 (not sure which of the two). But as said before, it's up to the individual as to what they do with their own engine.

that what I think, take a look at some of the pictures and note the position of the cylinders.

www.lner.info/locos/A/a2_1.shtml

rob

[silverfox]

mmmaidnz

I agree with the scale comments. However , if you are as old as I! you may have seen Fred Beards GWR Dean Single. I had the privilege of watching Fred build this from scratch, not one commercial casting was bought to use on it. eg the Drivers were hand cut from solid, the crank axle and eccentrics turned from solid, he said there were over 17 centres he had to use.The badges and crests were hand made as well Most of his stuff was scale, but even he had to make some exceptions to the 100% scale mantra. Still He won the Gold medal and the Duke of Edinburghs trophy. Despite the agreed workmanship, this engine would not reach those heights. I am more concerned with the description. The Loco is neither an A2/1 (Thompson) or an A1(Peppercorn)

There are several ME who have the same thoughts as me regarding locos that ran for BR Esp with the final painting that is not up to the rest of the effort put into the loco esp Lettering/numbering. These are at one end of the scale. Chris Vine is the other ( Chris , got the book for birthday, excellent)
Why do they spend a lot of time getting the engineering right, then IMHO spoil it with bad livery?
I admire freelance engines, there you have a blank canvas, but my point is, if it says it is an A2/1 or a King or MN or Duchess, then it should look like it.
These guys must be engineers first and railway enthusiasts second.
And i agree 100% with the comments that it is his engine, Two examples spring to mind in full size, The Fairburn Tank at Lakeside in CR blue and 'Scotsman' running around in every configuration, but not one, except for a few years ago, was correct, but at the end of the day its their engine and they have the final say, If you dont like it, you pay to get it right.
The Bottom line however is, this engine is not what it says on the tin. Anyone disagree with that?

[havoc]

Why do they spend a lot of time getting the engineering right, then IMHO spoil it with bad livery?
.....
These guys must be engineers first and railway enthusiasts second.

Yep, and I'm as guilty of that as they are. Once it runs and the mechanics are sorted out then the fun is out of it. Making things like running boards, a cabin etc is a chore. Never mind painting. You see that a lot in Gauge 1: unpainted engines.

I admire freelance engines, there you have a blank canvas,

And it is bl***y hard to do well. I tried it and failed. Getting the proportions right without taking an existing engine as a guide is not easy. Well for me it isn't.

[dickdastardly40]

Just looked at the Ebay ad, whilst I'm in neither camp regarding the designation or asthetics of his model I notice he has no reserve on the auction.

True he does have 24 bidders at present and the price is up to £7322 with almost 7 days left but he could end up short of the £13750 he'll be advertising it in MEW for unless he removes the auction before the end.

Will it go for that sort of money?

[Tony K]

dickdastardly40 said:

True he does have 24 bidders at present and the price is up to £7322 with almost 7 days left but he could end up short of the £13750 he'll be advertising it in MEW for unless he removes the auction before the end.
Will it go for that sort of money?

Nice sales technique which is working for him - everyone is looking at it now and he is applying pressure to offer him near his asking price. He may just pull it if it does not approach his REAL price (bad practice IMHO), but with these sort of sums I would have thought he could afford to use a reserve and do it properly or start at a higher price. I wonder why he thinks he will get a higher price via ME etc.? Well perhaps he just does not think that - is he just trying it on?

As always, locomotives are like women - if you do not get this one there will be another one along in a minute!

[alanstepney]

I dont reckon it is worth anything over £10k, but what do I know.

Everything I sell is worthless, and everything I want is worth more than I can afford! lol

[mutley]

As always, locomotives are like women - if you do not get this one there will be another one along in a minute!

Umm, some locomotives seem to be along more often than others. Is this the same engine?
www.vectis.co.uk/auctiondet.php?item_id=190374

Looks very similar with only minor alterations, the obvious one being the dome and I believe it might have changed hands at least once since.
There are so many people now who 'play' at being dealers and use ebay as their shop window that I would be very wary of buying anything from ebay.

Andy

[baggo]

I have just noticed that the seller pulled this item this afternoon. He also suddenly decided yesterday that it was only 2 cylinder and not 3 as advertised! Apparently this makes it more reliable

John

[Tony K]

It would be nice to know if the bidders got an apology from him for time-wasting. Some chance I think!

Well, we all know what he is - don't we?

[silverfox]

2 Cyls more reliable? Must be Riddles, wonder why he has withdrawn, perhap a buyer from one of the mages

[steam4ian]

Praps he was able to sell the other cylinder separately.

Ian