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Post by simplyloco on Oct 16, 2022 18:53:04 GMT
Hi folks.
I bought the castings today at the Midlands Show. To help things along, today on ebay I won a lovely little Cowells lathe complete with the most desirable accessories: i.e..
3 jaw chuck,
4 jaw chuck,
2 front posts,
4 collets & Adaptor,
1 blank collet.
die holder,
fixed steady,
angle plate
vertical slide/milling vise,
back plate,
Test bar and catch plate.
Watch this thread...
John
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 17, 2022 15:51:49 GMT
It's a little smaller than a Stuart Major, but probably a bigger project. We have a Living Room makeover going on right now, but this is a start! I've never, ever, bought new castings before, and I was surprised at the clever packaging and the content. Mind you, at £1000 a pop it should be OK...! Four trays of castings and a crank GA drawing. You even get piston rings, all the BA bolts/screws/nuts, and gasket paper!  Two detailed drawings and a full GA.  Too much flash for my liking. I pointed this out to the Stuart salesman and he said that's the best the foundry can do! He also said that some customers moan if they remove it before sale!  More soon. I've got to get my Cowells up to scratch!!! John |
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dalboy
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 235
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Post by dalboy on Oct 17, 2022 16:57:10 GMT
Looks like an interesting project can't wait to see the start of it. Does look like a lot of flash on that
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,912
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Post by JonL on Oct 18, 2022 19:40:41 GMT
Stuart make a lot of excuses about their foundry and castings. I believe they own the foundry.... I've mentioned before I've had some really badly chilled castings from them, but to be fair they did replace them no-quibble (but it took them a while to source the replacements. Weeks.)
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 21, 2022 11:14:56 GMT
My email to Stuarts this morning. Dear Sirs I purchased the above on Sunday at the Show. I wish to return them as the castings I have examined are not of the quality demanded, and I would not be able, (or motivated) to produce a decent result. My last project, a Major Beam. was made from castings from a different era... I learnt to sand cast during my apprenticeship, and I would not have dared to present these to my examiners, especially if I was charging £1000 a pop... Excess flash, holes and very poor finish: the base is so bad that to meet my usual standards I would have to machine off the entire surface of the casting! In addition, the pump housing has been cast in a grade of sand entirely unsuitable to the size. I would be obliged if you would kindly send me a return label at your earliest convenience, and issue a refund in due course. Thanks John Barrett     |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 21, 2022 13:26:15 GMT
Goodness, they are horrible. No way 'Old Stuart' at Henley on Thames would have turned out castings like that. They were very proud of the fine surface finish on their castings.
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Post by coniston on Oct 21, 2022 19:34:35 GMT
Do they dig their own sand off the beaches? Pretty poor for what they sell them for and what you're expecting to make them into.
Chris
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millman
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 299 
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Post by millman on Oct 21, 2022 21:53:50 GMT
At the last Ally Pally exhibition I looked at Stuart Turner beam engine castings, I have always wanted to make their beam engine, but the castings were terrible quality so I searched for an old unused set and eventually managed to find a set on Station Road Steam website, they were excellent quality and finish and a pleasure to machine. I think that most of the castings produced for model engineers nowadays are very poor quality, the foundry’s don’t really want to be bothered with our work, but of course are happy enough to take our money and patterns are not being maintained like they used to be, they wear due to being abraded by sand and general bashing about, I purchased some Tich wheels about a year ago for use on a 2 1/2 inch gauge Toby, the castings looked like they had been cast in a jelly mould, all rounded corners and no detail, they went straight into the scrap bin and I carved a set out of the solid. I will not buy any castings in future, I will fabricate or carve out of solid.
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Post by Jo on Oct 22, 2022 6:16:10 GMT
The only new set of commercial castings I have recently purchased came from Polly Models - They were good quality. The only issue is they now only have them made to order rather than having any on the shelf.
Jo
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,210
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Post by jasonb on Oct 22, 2022 7:01:17 GMT
last Stuart ones I had were at Xmas and could not fault them, soft, minimal flash and a good surface, thats the 7" flywheel for scale As I said to John of I think FB scratch building would put you in control, few blocks of CI some flat steel bar and a pack of JBWeld and you are off.  |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 22, 2022 11:48:05 GMT
Fettling is expensive for the foundry, and there is a danger that if not done carefully on small complex castings such as many engine parts are, the fettler will accidentally grind off some of the detail by mistake. Having said that although I agree that Jason's flywheel is way better than Johns triple castings, which are awful, but I still think that 'old Stuart' would have taken off the pimple and the flash sticking out.
I begin to suspect that the patterns are beginning to wear, and are not being maintained, and maybe the moulder isn't very skilled.
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,210
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Post by jasonb on Oct 22, 2022 19:37:45 GMT
I don't know if they are still even using the shell moulding process that they used to. More likely air or resin set sand which is just dumped out a hopper into the flask and roughly rammed and then struck off flat. It does not need much ramming as the setting agents hold it into place. The patterns for the shell casting would hav ebeen metal as they need to be heated as part of the process so will be a lot more durable than wood
On the other hand green or oilbound would often have a sifted layer of new sand over the pattern first before some older mulled sand was added and rammed, repeat a few times to bring the sand to the level of the flask. This often gives a better finish but is time consuming and will drive the cost up even more.
They may use a bit of both and that is why some castings are better than others
They have also stopped using the hot pressed brass parts and now supply CNC cut ones like valves and the conrods and eccentric straps for the 10 series engines.
Extrusions too have dissapeared no doubt due to capital outlay of having a batch run and that is if the dies are not worn out. You now get things like the 10 series bearings cast rather than extruded section.
I don't see anything that some Fettling and dremel work won't sort followed by a wipe of body filler
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,912
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Post by JonL on Oct 23, 2022 12:33:48 GMT
Those are dreadful. Obviously I don't have as much experience as Jason but to my mind they would need more than a wipe of filler. And more to the point, why should we have to be filling such awful work? What's happened to their QA process?
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,210
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Post by jasonb on Oct 23, 2022 17:22:10 GMT
Might be of interest to see what I usually get upto in the way of prep and paint of castings Galloway - that large area of filler down the side of the cylinder jacket was to fill over enthusiastic clean up at the foundry, prep starts a few photos down. Foundry fettling at it's best  Gade - similar sort of work with a longer explaination. My thought son "snad texture" are on the next page of the thread. Both of those would have had some initial fettling by me before machining. |
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 23, 2022 18:56:22 GMT
Might be of interest to see what I usually get upto in the way of prep and paint of castings Galloway - that large area of filler down the side of the cylinder jacket was to fill over enthusiastic clean up at the foundry, prep starts a few photos down. Foundry fettling at it's best SNIP Gade - similar sort of work with a longer explaination. My thought son "snad texture" are on the next page of the thread. Both of those would have had some initial fettling by me before machining. Lovely work Jason, but that involved just one casting. There are dozens on the Triple and I haven't got the time, energy or inclination -let alone the eyesight- to take that much care over the casting prep. As JonL says, why should I have to? I'll be geeing them up tomorrow, and I will be passing on the response... John |
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,210
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Post by jasonb on Oct 23, 2022 19:54:42 GMT
"Lovely work Jason, but that involved just one casting."
There are 20 or so castings in either engine, all needed similar work (and many of them shown in the links) except the couple of fully machined ones much like the Stuart,
You would not worry about surface finish on say a piston casting for the triple as it's machined all over. Same for that Gun Metal bearing half that you show it's machined on every surface so it's only a bit of flash which will come of when the first op of machining the split line is done so not really any need to fettle it
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 24, 2022 14:47:47 GMT
Stuart Models accepted the return without question.
I get my Cowells tomorrow so I'll have to look for something else!
John
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Post by flyingfox on Oct 24, 2022 15:34:53 GMT
Greetings John, if you fancy a "Triple", Reeves do the Bolton triple, instructions for which have updated by Mr Bertinit, I think. My set of casting for this slightly larger engine are fine.
Regards
Brian B
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 24, 2022 16:00:24 GMT
Greetings John, if you fancy a "Triple", Reeves do the Bolton triple, instructions for which have updated by Mr Bertinit, I think. My set of casting for this slightly larger engine are fine. Regards Brian B Wow! That is one beautiful engine! All the castings are made of gunmetal and can be polished... modelengineeringwebsite.com/Triple_expansion_engine.htmlI might just take that on... unless you want to send yours to a good home...  |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 24, 2022 21:01:06 GMT
Soe years ago I made some patterns for a Stuart No. 3 2 cylinder compound, c 1910. I did the box bed, engine bed and cylinder block, using Stuart No. 1 castings for the standards, and making the rest from the solid. For size, its the compound version of the No. 1.
If you fancy that, Adrian at Engineers Emporium has the patterns and core boxes now.
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