Injector Problem?

[kipford]

My Super Simplex has an injector which until recently was completely reliable. Turn the water on open the steam valve and it picked up fully, no dribbles every time. It then started to play up working intermittently and finally not picking up at all. I removed the injector and soaked it in white vinegar and ensured the cones were not blocked as best I could. Back on the loco it picked up a little bit of water but not enough for it to be useful. I removed the injector again and gave it another soak in vinegar. I also cleaned all the tanks and feed pipes. Back on the loco this afternoon, no improvement. Disconnecting the feed pipe to the clack and opening the steam valve the water should shoot out, but it is only a very low flow. As far as I can tell there are no air leaks in the feed pipe. I cannot remove the cones from the body to see if they are still partially blocked as they will not move. Before I ask Ben Pavier for a new injector, anyone got any thoughts?
Dave

[jma1009]

Hi Dave,

If you can provide an accurate description of what is happening at the overflow, that might help.

Have you tried blowing through the water feed pipe and the delivery pipe? (The last being to see whether you have a stuck clack). You also ought to be able to see through the cones, and remove the steam cone to inspect it etc.

Cheers,
Julian

[andyhigham]

do you live in a hard water area? The calcium in hard water can cause scale on the cones or can abrade the metal away

[SteveW]

Years back I looked at a couple of injector designs just for interest and for ease of building all the little cones, receivers and fiddly bits came out of the body. More precisely were pushed in carefully. Perhaps you not being able to get them out is clue to why it doesn't work. Perhaps there's bit of micro-goo in there.

Years back I treated myself to a 50 watt ultrasonic cleaner. Certainly a must for this sort of thing but in this case an air bubble in the wrong place will defeat it.

Just thought ... When soaking in vinegar did you ensure there wasn't an air bubble wedged in there? They can be quite persistent in tight corners.

Another possibility is its just worn out and the very subtle cone shape and spacing is now lost.

These things are an enigma at best.

[chris vine]

Hi Dave,

I have removed stuck steam cones in the past by using the 3 or concentric 4 jaw chuck to grip the visible end of the cone. Tighten it up reasonably, and use a twisting motion to release the cone.
It might work for you.

Also, I have had the same problem with a previously perfect injector which over time got worse.
Pickling made no real difference.

As I had not made the injector myself (yes I wish I will find the time to do this one day), I did not know the exact sizes of the throats etc, so difficult to diagnose the problem.
In the end I concluded that it had just worn out. Probably the steam cone throat, was my thought.

Once, I pickled an injector for too long and the pickle seemed to take away some of the brass.

I do wish those flimsy reamers would work well in phosphor bronze, pb102, then they would last much longer!!!

Chris.

[Roger]

Dec 2, 2022 23:49:10 GMT chris vine said:

Hi Dave,

I have removed stuck steam cones in the past by using the 3 or concentric 4 jaw chuck to grip the visible end of the cone. Tighten it up reasonably, and use a twisting motion to release the cone.
It might work for you.

Also, I have had the same problem with a previously perfect injector which over time got worse.
Pickling made no real difference.

As I had not made the injector myself (yes I wish I will find the time to do this one day), I did not know the exact sizes of the throats etc, so difficult to diagnose the problem.
In the end I concluded that it had just worn out. Probably the steam cone throat, was my thought.

Once, I pickled an injector for too long and the pickle seemed to take away some of the brass.

I do wish those flimsy reamers would work well in phosphor bronze, pb102, then they would last much longer!!!

Chris.

You can make the cones from Colphos or SAE660 Leaded Bronze, and that's just as easy to machine as Brass.

[kipford]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I have been tied up sorting out some other problems.
Julian
The clack was removed and cleaned, because I had to remake the pipe from the clack to the boiler top feed due to a failed nipple.
The injector was checked for blockage after cleaning by passing a 0.4mm wire through it an 0.5 mm wire does not pass through.
When the water valve is turned on water flows freely through the overflow. When you turn on the steam valve the flow reduces probably by about 50% but does not stop completely, so it appears to be partially working.
Steve
I have a couple of ultrasonic cleaners so will give the injector a try in one of them. I also blew the injector through after cleaning with an air line.
Chris I do not think there is enough meat to grad the end of the cones, you can just about grip them with pliars but they are stuck fast.

I need an injector for my Aspinall so think I will get one from Pavier Steam anyway.

Dave

[waggy]

Adding to Chris Vine’s tip for using the lathe chuck, if you have ER collets available you will get a much better grip on the cone.

Hope this helps,

Waggy.

[chris vine]

Even better!!

Chris.

[miken]

Dec 4, 2022 22:38:21 GMT kipford said:

I need an injector for my Aspinall so think I will get one from Pavier Steam anyway.

Dave

They are great.
I've got them on 3 of my locos.
They always work well straight away.
I rarely bother to look down to check when I'm driving.

[kipford]

I have ER collets but the amount of shoulder protruding from the injector body is only about 2mm so there is still very little land to grip on. I will give it a go though but it will probably not be until week as we are just about to go babysitting for a few days and then I am off to Manchester for the weekend with our club EM gauge layout Hope-under-Dinmore for the Manchester Christmas Model Railway exhibition.
I have also emailed Paul Pavier to order a new injector.
Dave

[Midland]

Dave
I have the same problem with a long loyal and working injector that has mutinied. But if I can find It I will lend you DAG Brown's book in injectors and he shows some simple tools one can make to remove cones. Perhaps I must remove mine and get the cobwebs out!!!
Will look for the book, not sure who I lent it to.
Cheers David

[chrisb]

I was going to mention the cone removal tools but couldn’t remember where I had seen them as all my workshop and books are packed up awaiting a new workshop to be built in April.
The tool David(Midland) is referring to is simply a piece of steel strip, say 1”x1/8” by 4” long with a hole in one end to suit the diameter of the cone of the injector you are working on at one end. Then slot the length of the strip from the opposite end to the hole you have just drilled. You can then pretty it up by radiusing the end round the hole and tapering the handles. It is then just a case of slipping it over the cone and squeezing the handles to grip the shoulder of the cone.

[coniston]

Dave, I have that tool in my tool box at the club if you're there Thursday and a copy of DAG browns book if you want to borrow it

Chris

[flyingfox]

Greetings, a suitable cone removal toll is also described in the Laurie Lawrence articles in ME reprinted at various times. Failure to use such a tool usually results to damage to the cone, which becomes immoveable & thus scrap. As me how I know!
Regards
Brian B

[kipford]

Chris
Will be there Thursday only full day back at home this week!
Dave

[mugbuilder]

Most likely a bit of crud was Sucked in through the water inlet and caught between the steam cone and combining cone. The steam cone will have to be removed to clean it out. All the vinegar in the world won't get rid of it if it is insoluble. I have seen this many times and owners are reluctant to try to remove the steam cones.
Barry