Writers E. L. Ahrons, Ernest W Twining and Stan Buck

[jimc]

This is an exceedingly long shot come forlorn hope but... 
I would like to find out if anything remains of papers from the estates of E. L. Ahrons and Ernest W Twining. At some stage they both had copies of a Great Western Railway Drawing that appears not to have reached the National archives. Mr Stan Buck wrote a biography of Ernest Twining, and appears to have written other volumes with model engineering content, so if he is still with us I was hoping he might have some insight into Mr Twining's estate. This seemed as good a place as any to try and look for a connection as the publisher he used appears to have been dissolved several years ago.

regards, Jim Champ

[ettingtonliam]

It might help if you told us which GWR drawing it is that you are looking for. Yes, Landmark publishing seems to have folded about 12 years ago,, and I suspect (but am not certain) that Stan Buck is no longer with us.
I've got his book on EW Twining, and Ahrons 'The British Steam Railway Locomotive', and I presume that you do also.

[jimc]

Thanks. The drawing is of the water tanks of the very unsuccessful experimental 4-2-4 tank engine GWR no 9. I've found someone who says they will pass my contact details onto Mr. Buck. So fingers crossed, although I fear the chances are minimal.

[lesstoneuk]

Are you talking about the Bristol and Exeter Railway 4-2-4 tanks, four of which were absorbed when the B & E R was taken over by the GWR

ibb.co/5c9ZwF9

ibb.co/92JZXdn

[jimc]

Dec 16, 2022 7:46:33 GMT lesstoneuk said:

Are you talking about the Bristol and Exeter Railway 4-2-4 tanks, 

No, something far more obscure. An experimental standard gauge locomotive, no 9, which reputedly was so prone to derailing that it never got out of Swindon Works. No photographs survive, and probably no drawings. Mr Twining had sight of two surviving drawings in 1940, which he used to assemble a hypothetical sketch. If his papers survive, and if a copy of the original tank drawing is among them - you see just how forlorn a hope this is - then it could answer some questions. It all depends on whether some lines on his sketch are part of his reconstruction or appear on the original drawing.

Regards, Jim C

[lesstoneuk]

I can appreciate your problem. I had the devil's own job finding details of Mattingly's Pacific sketched and theorised during F. W. Hawksworth's tenure of office

[weary]

This guy appears to have found a sketch drawing of 4-2-4T 'No.9'.

I suspect that the book the poster references is actually 'Experiments with Steam: Landmarks in Unusual British Steam Locomotive Design, 1846 - 1959'. But you would have to check that.

Phil

[jimc]

Dec 16, 2022 9:13:49 GMT weary said:

This guy appears to have found a sketch drawing of 4-2-4T 'No.9'.

I suspect that the book the poster references is actually 'Experiments with Steam: Landmarks in Unusual British Steam Locomotive Design, 1846 - 1959'. But you would have to check that.

Phil

Yes indeed. Thanks. Based on Ernest Twining's drawing which has been reproduced in quite a few places. When the weather improves I must go to Kew and look up Twining's original article (the Locomotive Carriage and Wagon Review, Jan 1940) and see if there's anything helpful in the text. 

[mbrown]

No need to go to Kew! I have the Locomotive for 1940 open on my desk now (p.9). There is the Twining drawing which, as you say, has been reproduced quite often. The front bogie is only sketched in as EWT didn't have details.

He says "The only drawings in existence, two in number, show, on one of them, the tanks, sand boxes, coal bunk (sic) and wheel-base with the driving wheels indicated by double dotted circles. The other gives complete details of the boiler. The dates on the drawings are 1880 and 1879 respectively.

"These drawings provide sufficient information to enable one to reconstruct, with the aid of photographs taken after rebuilding, the whole engine with the exception of the arrangement of the eight carrying wheels."

There follows quite a long discussion of how the carrying wheels might have been arranged. I can copy it for you if it would be helpful.

Twining notes that he was loaned the two drawings by C.B Collett. Assuming he returned them and didn't keep them, that suggests that they will not turn up in Twining's papers and, if they still exist, will be in some archive of Swindon drawings.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes

Malcolm

[jimc]

Dec 16, 2022 10:29:34 GMT mbrown said:

> I can copy it for you if it would be helpful.

If you don't mind a photo of the text would be helpful. I fear you may be right about the loan being of the originals, but its worth a try.

thankyou , Jim C

[ettingtonliam]

Have you seen 'An outline of GWR Locomotive Practice 1837-1947' by H Holcroft? There is a small outline drawing of No 9, and the text reads
'Dean's next step was the building of a ten wheel locomotive, No.9 (Fig 33), to carry full length side tanks containing no less than 2,500 gal. It was of the 4-2-4 type with 7ft. 8in. driving wheels having inside bearings, and was a revival of Pearson's express tank engines of the former Bristol & Exeter Railway. Access to the motion for oiling and inspection was partially improved by locating the Stephenson valve gear outside the driving wheels and using rocking shafts to transmit the motion to slide valves located above the cylinders. The bogie wheels again had wood centres, the leading bogie having inside bearings. The trailing bogie was of the carriage type as fitted to No.1. No. 9 was liable to derailment and never did any useful work but was set to one side. No. 1 was not satisfactory either and was converted to the 2-4-0 type and the side tanks shortened to normal length. After this essay with tanks engines for fast trains, Dean reverted to the tender engine for that purpose.'

No. 1 apparently was a 4-4-0 tank locomotive using an adaption of Dean's carriage bogie, and was built in 1880.

There is no explanation regarding why No. 9 was so prone to derailment, nor why No. 1 was not satisfactory.

I have no idea if the drawing of No. 9 was taken from Twining, or if it was drawn by Holcroft from information gathered when he was working at Swindon.

[jimc]

Dec 16, 2022 14:41:49 GMT ettingtonliam said:

> Have you seen 'An outline of GWR Locomotive Practice 1837-1947' by H Holcroft? There is a small outline drawing of No 9, and ...

Yes, 'm familiar with Holcroft. The drawing is indeed Twining's. Holcroft was about 3 when No 9 was rebuilt, so wouldn't have known of it personally.  Its an open question whether Holcroft knew of the locomotive from Swindon staff, or whether he used Twining's research and Ahron's work. Ahrons too didn't join Swindon until just after it was rebuilt, but he tells us he talked to people and saw some of the parts.

There's a mention in Ahrons, Twining's work and the information in Holcroft, plus various drawings of the locomotive as rebuilt as a 2-2-2. A mention in Gibson's book "Great Western Locomotive Design" seems solely based on Twining, but with an admixture of conspiracy theory which is characteristic of Gibson. There's also some evidence garnered more recently by Les Summers from looking at Swindon's register of drawings. The register gives a brief description of drawings which provides a couple of clues even where the drawing doesn't exist. Unfortunately there's a degree of contradiction in these sources which it would be nice to pin down a bit. For instance Twining has drawn much shorter eccentric rods than are on the drawings and photographs of the rebuilt locomotive. It seems slightly unlikely that Swindon would have made new components as they were seeking to reuse as much as possible. However Twining draws cavities in the tanks which had to accomadate part of the valve gear. Those cavities preclude the longer eccentric rods on the 2-2-2. So if the cavities are shewn on the Swindon drawing then they definitively tie down the length of the eccentric rods, but if they are not all is still up in the air. And again Ahrons talks, not very firmly, about centre pins for the bogies, but Holcroft is firm that the trailing bogie was a centreless type. A mystery it seems is very unlikely to be solved is the nature of the front bogie.  Twining's discussion, which Malcolm has told us about, contains speculation about the bogie, and we have Holcroft telling us it had inside frames. But no other 19thC GWR bogie has inside frames, and if you consider inside frames, suspension, and a potential centre pivot, all situated under the cylinders, well that would be a challenge for the draughtsman.  Obviously the puzzle can never be solved, but maybe it can be narrowed down a bit.

Jim C

[mbrown]

I love this sort of research! I was going to send you the article from The Locomotive as a PM but I don't see why everyone shouldn't see it if they are interested - after all, it is out of copyright! You'll see that Twining questions whether the leading two axles could have been a bogie at all and hints that they might have been rigidly mounted in the frames, maybe with a bit of side play.

I guess that, if the drawings are not in any known Swindon archive, either they were destroyed (purged by some GWR fanatic covering up Swindon's ancient mistakes before Nationalisation??!) or taken by some third party. It is, I suppose, just possible that Twining made copies or sketches for his own use, but I think that is unlikely unless Collett only lent them for a very short period as EWT could consult the originals until his reconstruction drawing was done.

Anyway, don't give up. Are you researching this monstrosity with a view to building a model? I found, when researching Lyn and the BMR loco that crucial information came to light just after I had completed the models - sometimes my guesses were proved right, but not always!

Best wishes

Malcolm


20221216_141944 by malcolm brown, on Flickr

20221216_142003 by malcolm brown, on Flickr


20221216_142007 by malcolm brown, on Flickr


20221216_142020 by malcolm brown, on Flickr

[jimc]

Excellent! Many thanks. May I redistribute the photos?

Jim C

[ettingtonliam]

Good stuff, Malcolm, but is the scan for page 8 missing?

[mbrown]

I edited it after posting p.7 twice - it looks OK to me now, but let me know if p.8 isn't coming through for you.

If by "redistribute" Jim means send them to other people, I have no objection as the magazines are long out of copyright.

Best wishes

Malcolm

[jimc]

Thankyou Malcolm, I get all the pages. As they are on flickr I have just copied the links to the GWR E list where we've been discussing this. The article has been most helpful to me. Not only are there a couple of dimensions, boiler pitch especially, that aren't elsewhere, but also Twining's description of his thinking gives me a bit more confidence in treating his lines as being derived from the GWR drawing. I'm not making a model, but I am producing a sketch of the locomotive. I wrote a book with a lot of sketches of GWR locomotives in and I'm filling gaps in the collection. I shall try and remember to come back and post it when I've finished.
Thanks again Malcolm, and thanks to all the other contributors. Maybe in line with the well known law a copy of the drawing will appear when I've finished my sketch!

Jim Champ