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Post by doubletop on Jan 5, 2019 3:33:19 GMT
It looks a bit bare without rooftop ventilators.... They would dig into the fleshy parts of your passengers and help them to avoid slipping off the coach.....! Malcolm Malcolm Believe me it has been discussed, but not in terms off PAX falling off, more about them being discouraged to get on in the first place. Pete
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peteh
Statesman
Still making mistakes!
Posts: 760
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Post by peteh on Jan 5, 2019 7:42:28 GMT
Maybe have the vents screw into the roof so they can be removed for PAX service?
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Post by doubletop on Jan 5, 2019 7:55:03 GMT
Maybe have the vents screw into the roof so they can be removed for PAX service? That would be too convinient for them Pete
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Post by steamer5 on Jan 5, 2019 8:10:17 GMT
Hi Pete, Looking good! You could always spring load them...
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by doubletop on Jan 6, 2019 7:41:29 GMT
Work on the Autocoach has been put on hold while I deal with the blown gasket on the Dart. At lunchtime today I could have steamed it up and run it. By teatime it was far from runnable after a bit of a strip down. Don't you just love the accessibility of internal motion? The offending item. You can just see a bit of gasket hanging out of the rear right cylinder cover Hopefully this will be completed within the week. Now I’ve got it apart I’ve a list of other minor jobs to be done. Pete
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Post by doubletop on Mar 24, 2019 8:32:04 GMT
I was convinced that I'd updated this thread after I'd completed the repair and got it all back together again. I see from my last post that I'd done the strip down on the 6th January. I have these photos on Imgur dated 9th January with it all back together again ready to run. While I was doing the job I took the opportunity to move some of the ballast weight in the tanks further forward and under the front axle. These 2"x1" tubes are full of lead, about 6kg total. The remainder of the lead in the tanks, about 8kg each side is now forward over the main driver. The lugs at the back hang from the now redundant drain cock weighshaft cranks and the bar at the front is located on the derail bar that replaced the horns. This modification has transformed the traction of the loco.
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Post by doubletop on Mar 24, 2019 20:30:24 GMT
The urgency, back in January to get the leaking cylinder gasket sorted was so I could attend the Palmerston North “Locomotion” event at the end of the month. I took the complete trainset along and I was able to try out something that I’d always intended which is running the Autocoach in front of the loco. What you will notice in this photo is a stainless tube along the running board that takes the brake vacuum line forwards for the Autocoach brakes. The long-term plan had been run the Autocoach in the front and use the Toad as the driving trolley. The Toad as a driving trolley has been parked for now. The Driving trolley I am using had been built for running behind NZR sized locos is oversize for UK locos. My longer term plan is either to retire it or reduce its size. The Dart runs with dry tanks water coming from tanks in the driving trolley. I know it doesn’t go down too well with the purists but it also includes a high-pressure electric water pump and, as we have power, a vacuum pump for the brakes. These are very much backup facilities I refer to them as ‘the panic buttons’. I’ve now fitted out the Autocoach with the tanks and pumps which allows the Dart to be run from the Autocoach. You’ll also notice from this photo that a start has been made on fitting out the Autocoach cab One problem that was identified when running the Autocoach in front of the loco was that running up to some driver actuated points could be problematic, particularly when the control was close to the points. It required a passenger “driver” to work the points. This is now leading to a further refinement. I’m going to add a remote control at the Autocoach cab end that gives a “driver” control of the brakes and operate a bell/gong. The loco driver will then just be the fireman. Because of the vacuum pipe running the length of the loco the brake control will operate the full train brakes. The vacuum cylinders I’ve used are so powerful that the loco will easily be retarded. We’ll see how that turns out, it could be fun. Pete
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,907
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Post by JonL on Mar 25, 2019 15:00:35 GMT
What a fantastic project. The "remote control" idea sounds fantastic.
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Post by doubletop on May 5, 2019 7:29:12 GMT
When I was building the Autocoach I was asked how was the driver going to fit in the cab? As you’ve seen I took the opportunity to try it out at the Palmerston North ‘Locomotion’ meeting in January. It worked fine but there was a problem when arriving at driver-operated points and the front of coach was already in the points. I had to find an assistant to sit on the front of the coach and operate the points for me. (purists look away) Since then the Autocoach has been fitted out with high pressure water pump and a vacuum pump for the brakes. The control for these is located at the rear of the coach (guards cab end) to be operated by the loco driver. The driving cab being to the rear of the train. The VW vacuum cylinders for the bogie brakes have proven to be very effective, they can pull the train up in its own length, the only problem is the vacuum is so good it needed a way of releasing it when the brakes were electrically operated. A12v solenoid valve solved the problem, with a button added to the control panel. The obvious extension to this arrangement was a remote braking control at the ‘driver’ end of the Autocoach. When driving with the coach in the front of the Dart the ‘driver’ has full control of the brakes and the train. The loco driver becomes just the fireman, as in full size. That was the theory, so a driver remote control was added. In addition the ‘train pipe’ for the brakes has been extended forward on the Dart so the full train brakes, both forward and aft, can be applied from the Autocoach when connected in front of the loco. The Dart has a ejector and the existing driving trolley has a separate vacuum pump either can also be used to stop the train. We had to try it out so two of us headed to the track on a quiet Thursday to give it a go. I have to say it exceeded expectations. The first test was could the coach brakes pull up the train when running at max allowable speed (10kph) with the regulator remaining open. It could; and what’s more when the brake release was operated the train pulled away from a standstill. The next test was the Autocoach in the front of the Dart with a ‘driver’ on the remote and fireman just tending to the loco. In the absence of a gong verbal gong/whistle codes were tried with the driver in control of the train. Again, it worked very well. The fireman being relieved of driving duties had an easy time of it being able to tend to the water and fire on the move. The driver being in control of the brakes dealt with speed and points selection. Both jobs were very pleasant as the load was shared. We then had to try the Autocoach back on the rear of the train and the train going backwards around the track. From the ‘fireman’s’ point of view going backwards around the track at 10kph was at first surreal experience but with the knowledge that the ‘driver’ had everything under control you soon got used to it. All in all and experiment that worked well and was great fun. No photos at the moment though as we were too busy having fun but the club chairman had his camera out so I’ll see what I can do. Next job is the gong and it is underway. There was a suggestion of a second Autocoach so one could be at the front and the other at the rear. I don’t think I’ll be doing it.
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on May 5, 2019 8:48:52 GMT
Excellent work Pete.
Well done.
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Post by doubletop on May 5, 2019 9:55:50 GMT
Excellent work Pete. Well done. Thank you Steve Pete
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Post by doubletop on May 13, 2019 10:36:18 GMT
While Dave and myself were out doing some 'proof of concept" testing our club chairman had his camera out I'm the fireman and you can see Dave has the control box in his hand to manage the brakes. Plenty of steam so some time for a cuppa.... Unfortuanately the club doesn't have a turntable to get the cab to the front, however, as the autocoach has controls at both ends we could still try the "push" scenario. Downhill at this point so time for the fireman to relax a bit. All good fun and with two of you in control a pretty relaxed mode of operation. Pete
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Post by steamer5 on May 13, 2019 12:22:04 GMT
Hi Pete, Now if you modify your driving truck with an easy chair the change will be complete!
Looking good!
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by doubletop on May 13, 2019 20:54:02 GMT
Kerrin
We are not in the USA and our tracks aren't Km's long so I'll think I'll pass on that. I'd rather it look just about right than like a fairground ride
Pete
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Post by doubletop on Aug 3, 2020 7:29:08 GMT
I'm writing something up for the club newsletter and realised I'd said here that the next job was the gong. So I may as well share it with you. An electro-mechanical bell was considered but it wasn’t practical. Back to eBay and a sound card and 100w amplifier was purchased. I only needed one bell but the card has the capability for 8, 255 or 65535 different sounds depending on how it is used. Eight was more than enough so I had a bell and various train whistles to play with. Control buttons were included at the Driver and Fireman end of the coach. As defined in C.B. Collets GWR circular 5720 of July 28th 1936 the bell codes of 1 Ring Start, 2 Rings Brakes Off, 3 Rings Stop could now be used. The Autocoach is fitted with a “DynoBox”, my dynamometer in a box that I had published in Model Engineer issue 4571. The next version V2 has GPS so in addition to time, distance, speed, drawbar pull, load, work, power etc location is logged. One of the other features I had added to V2 was an overspeed warning with an adjustable threshold which was set at 10km/h. Then came an off the cuff comment ‘When it is overspeed does it put the brakes on?”. That got me thinking and a couple of solid-state relays and DynoBox was able to put the brakes on and release them once the speed was reduced. It took a bit to get it right, the early version slammed the brakes on far too hard, pulsing the brakes, cadence braking, cured that and created a nicer more controlled reduction in speed. The modifications to DynoBox V2 required an external circuit board in a small plastic box, a bit of a bodge, so a Version 3 circuit board designed which had the solid state relays on the board. The design was sent to China and in about 7 days I had 10 new circuit boards. DynoBox was then upgraded to V3. Autobrake was now in service. Thoughts then moved to “what next?” In an overspeed situation, I’ve got the brakes being operated automatically and I can ring the bell manually. Why not get AutoBrake to ring the correct Bell codes? Now, AutoBell does 3 rings when the brakes are applied and 2 rings when the correct speed is reached and the brakes are released. I’m using a simulator to set the speed. When the overspeed indication comes, on the vacuum pump can be heard starting and the bell does 3 rings. While it is over speed the vacuum pump pulses on and off and you can hear the vacuum increasing with each on period. The speed was then reduced and the overspeed warning clears and 2 bells are rung. In addition, now that DynoBox has control of the sound card I can make use of its extended capability and use the 255 sounds option. I have found a number of reasonably good quality GWR station announcements on YouTube. They are in 1/2hour clips but a bit of editing with the Goldwave audio editor they were easily split out to separate files. For example, “Mind the Gap”, “The 6:25 to London Paddington is delayed”, “You can only bring a bicycle on this service if you have booked beforehand”. All good fun. So Autocoach, Autobrake, AutoBell and what next? Any suggestions? (no I’m not doing AutoWhistle, AutoRegulator or anything similar) Pete
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,719
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Post by mbrown on Aug 3, 2020 8:44:11 GMT
I would think "See it, Say it, Sorted" is the obvious announcement - you'll drive all the spectators mad!
Seriously, I thought the gong was for use instead of the whistle when the coach was leading, while the codes for brakes etc. were sent on a buzzer that operated between the driving compartment of the coach and the cab so that the driver could communicate with the fireman.
I may be wrong - perhaps a GWR expert could clarify, if only for my benefit.
Amazing work, though!
Malcolm
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Post by doubletop on Aug 3, 2020 8:56:46 GMT
I would think "See it, Say it, Sorted" is the obvious announcement - you'll drive all the spectators mad! Seriously, I thought the gong was for use instead of the whistle when the coach was leading, while the codes for brakes etc. were sent on a buzzer that operated between the driving compartment of the coach and the cab so that the driver could communicate with the fireman. I may be wrong - perhaps a GWR expert could clarify, if only for my benefit. Amazing work, though! Malcolm Malcolm Thanks As you'll see I'm in NZ so haven't been subjected to these announcements. However, I do have "See It Say It Sorted" in the repotoire and its driven me mad already. You are probably correct about the different use of the bells and gongs, it is something that crossed my mind looking at the cab layout. Maybe somebody can explain. Easily rectified though I can just change the file on the SD card for the correct sound. Pete
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Aug 3, 2020 14:54:40 GMT
I'm writing something up for the club newsletter and realised I'd said here that the next job was the gong. So I may as well share it with you. An electro-mechanical bell was considered but it wasn’t practical. Back to eBay and a sound card and 100w amplifier was purchased. I only needed one bell but the card has the capability for 8, 255 or 65535 different sounds depending on how it is used. Eight was more than enough so I had a bell and various train whistles to play with. Control buttons were included at the Driver and Fireman end of the coach. As defined in C.B. Collets GWR circular 5720 of July 28th 1936 the bell codes of 1 Ring Start, 2 Rings Brakes Off, 3 Rings Stop could now be used. The Autocoach is fitted with a “DynoBox”, my dynamometer in a box that I had published in Model Engineer issue 4571. The next version V2 has GPS so in addition to time, distance, speed, drawbar pull, load, work, power etc location is logged. One of the other features I had added to V2 was an overspeed warning with an adjustable threshold which was set at 10km/h. [Photos snipped] Then came an off the cuff comment ‘When it is overspeed does it put the brakes on?”. That got me thinking and a couple of solid-state relays and DynoBox was able to put the brakes on and release them once the speed was reduced. It took a bit to get it right, the early version slammed the brakes on far too hard, pulsing the brakes, cadence braking, cured that and created a nicer more controlled reduction in speed. The modifications to DynoBox V2 required an external circuit board in a small plastic box, a bit of a bodge, so a Version 3 circuit board designed which had the solid state relays on the board. The design was sent to China and in about 7 days I had 10 new circuit boards. DynoBox was then upgraded to V3. Autobrake was now in service. Thoughts then moved to “what next?” In an overspeed situation, I’ve got the brakes being operated automatically and I can ring the bell manually. Why not get AutoBrake to ring the correct Bell codes? Now, AutoBell does 3 rings when the brakes are applied and 2 rings when the correct speed is reached and the brakes are released. I’m using a simulator to set the speed. When the overspeed indication comes, on the vacuum pump can be heard starting and the bell does 3 rings. While it is over speed the vacuum pump pulses on and off and you can hear the vacuum increasing with each on period. The speed was then reduced and the overspeed warning clears and 2 bells are rung. In addition, now that DynoBox has control of the sound card I can make use of its extended capability and use the 255 sounds option. I have found a number of reasonably good quality GWR station announcements on YouTube. They are in 1/2hour clips but a bit of editing with the Goldwave audio editor they were easily split out to separate files. For example, “Mind the Gap”, “The 6:25 to London Paddington is delayed”, “You can only bring a bicycle on this service if you have booked beforehand”. All good fun. So Autocoach, Autobrake, AutoBell and what next? Any suggestions? (no I’m not doing AutoWhistle, AutoRegulator or anything similar) Pete An interesting and atmospheric combo Pete. I used to travel regularly on the Greenford autotrain when I was too young to take an intense technical interest, but I don't recall the gong being used in the way you describe- it would have been in action all the time, but I don't recall hearing it much at all. By contrast the ATC bell (or siren) was going all the time, and could be distinctly heard in the passenger saloon behind the driver. I always supposed the gong was there purely as an emergency alert, because the driver had no access to the loco whistle, and when the loco was propelling the trailer, the coach blanked the engine noise and there was very little warning of the train's approach. I'm sure someone will be along soon with some footplate experience to confirm this or otherwise. One effect that is out of place though, I'm sorry to break it to you, is the Vacuum Pump. The only vacuum pump on these trains was fitted to the loco, and it made a characteristic loud 'pfft' sound once very revolution of the loco driving wheels, a sound utterly unique to the GWR. It operated whenever the wheels were rolling, it could not be started and stopped. I think you are confusing it here with the Westinghouse air pump system, a very different kettle of fish. You could hear these on the Underground trains but never ever on the GWR/WR in the steam era. Hope this helps Gary
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Post by doubletop on Aug 3, 2020 19:32:56 GMT
An interesting and atmospheric combo Pete. I used to travel regularly on the Greenford autotrain when I was too young to take an intense technical interest, but I don't recall the gong being used in the way you describe- it would have been in action all the time, but I don't recall hearing it much at all. By contrast the ATC bell (or siren) was going all the time, and could be distinctly heard in the passenger saloon behind the driver. I always supposed the gong was there purely as an emergency alert, because the driver had no access to the loco whistle, and when the loco was propelling the trailer, the coach blanked the engine noise and there was very little warning of the train's approach. I'm sure someone will be along soon with some footplate experience to confirm this or otherwise. One effect that is out of place though, I'm sorry to break it to you, is the Vacuum Pump. The only vacuum pump on these trains was fitted to the loco, and it made a characteristic loud 'pfft' sound once very revolution of the loco driving wheels, a sound utterly unique to the GWR. It operated whenever the wheels were rolling, it could not be started and stopped. I think you are confusing it here with the Westinghouse air pump system, a very different kettle of fish. You could hear these on the Underground trains but never ever on the GWR/WR in the steam era. Hope this helps Gary Gary Thanks for this and very helpful. I had occured to me that if the purpose of the gong was to signal the driver then it would be placed at the other end of the Autocoach. Although I was aware of a bell in the cab of the autocoach it was unclear to me how the bell signals were relayed to the loco cab. I don't think I've seen a photo of a bell in there. Maybe somebody can advise us? This is easily fixed though. I'll change the sound files for 'brakes on', 'brakes off' to be more of an ATC bell sound and retain the gong sound to be under the control of the autocoach driver for when we are running autocoach forwards. I'll have a dig around the net to see if I can find an example of the ATC bell or siren. I take the point of the vaccum pump noise being unrealistic. We use 12v electric vacuum pumps as an emergency braking facility. In some cases each passenger wagon having an independent pump and power supply. It is that pump I am utilising for my overspeed braking. It is not normally that loud as it is buried in the wagon. Thanks again, thats why we are here, constructive feedback. Pete
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Post by doubletop on Aug 4, 2020 1:39:58 GMT
Now on a search for GWR ATC sound files and stumbled across this. "Automatic Cab Signalling" by H. Arkell, March 2nd 1909:— P_091.PDF"The Automatic Train Control System of the GWR" by A.W.J. Dymond, March 10th 1936:— P_206.pdfI'll leave it here, you may find it interesting Pete
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