Boiler Certification

[dickdastardly40]

In another thread it was mentioned that as a boiler was likely out of certification, the value would be lower. This obviously makes sense, but I do have some questions; that I know nothing aout the subject at all should be patently obvious.

Does a boiler have to have an unbroken audit trail of certification throughout it's life in order to stay valid or can it be reinspected, pressure tested and steamed and re-certified to start again after a period out of spec?

What is the longest life a boiler can have given best case scenario of maintenance etc before it would need to be replaced?

Is it cost effective to replace a boiler or just 'not done'?

TIA

Al

[albert]

Hello Dick,
I will try to start your problem off. 1-Are the boilers steel or copper?2-No they do not have to have an unbroken audit trail. BUT having old test certs,manufactures certs is a good start. Old boilers can be inspected prior to a full test even without certs. There is no boiler expected life,but good maintaince is vital, you can destroy a boiler in seconds if for instance it is steamed with low water content.
More comment will no dought be on it's way.
Bye Albert

[havoc]

I have not heard yet that a boiler needs an unbroken trail of certificates. (sssht, don't let the beaurocrats hear this) However the test might be different if the last certicifate has expired. Easiest way is to ask a boilerinspector at the club you want to run it.

If you don't want to run it in public you don't need a certificate, but even then I would have it tested.

Well, if the boiler doesn't pass the tests then you can ask the question of cost efectiveness of a replacement. But that might depend on what was wrong. No need to replace the whole boiler if only the safety is defective, is there?

[baggo]

Albert mentioned the important points I think.

If the boiler is an 'unknown' quantity the boiler inspector will/should insist on a full visual inspection of the boiler which will mean at least removal of any cladding and insulation so that the outer surfaces can be seen. Access to the inside of the firebox will also be required to check the stays, crownsheet etc. If the visual inspection proves ok the boiler will be given a twice working pressure hydraulic test followed by the usual steam test.

I was chatting to our boiler inspector last Friday and the testing of boilers without paperwork was mentioned. He is thinking of getting a small endoscope so that he can actually examine the inside of the boilers that are brought to him. Apparently these endoscopes can be picked up quite cheaply nowadays. His comments suggested that the biggest cause of failure is collapsed crownsheets caused by inadequate staying or poor attachment of girder type crownstays to the firebox wrapper. Because of this he prefers rod stays rather than girders on larger boilers.

The biggest problems will be with steel boilers as they will suffer the most corrosion if not looked after properly and can have severe waisting of the barrel and plates which can be difficult to detect. He did suggest that this could possibly be checked with the ultrasonic thickness gauges which are now available. The endoscope would also be ideal for this. He did mention that there is no requirement for inspection manholes to be included in steel boilers which I found a bit strange.

Incidentally, some club inspectors will not test even a new DIY boiler unless they have seen the boiler during construction so that they can inspect the firebox, tubes etc before they are assembled into the barrel and outer wrapper.

As an example of boiler life, or rather lack of, he mentioned a chap who built a 4 inch (I think) traction engine with a steel boiler. He turned up at the traction engine rally one year with the original boiler in the back of his van. Apparently the boiler was completely shot even though it was only 6 years old! The inside was severely corroded and there were no gaps between the tubes, the spaces were completely solid. It sounds to me as though the boiler had been run on plain tap water without any treatment but it shows what can happen.

I suppose replacement of a faulty boiler depends on whether you think it is worth it or not. Obviously you have no choice if you wish to continue running the loco, traction engine etc. It will be a very expensive option if you go for a commercially made boiler and not exactly cheap if you make it yourself at todays prices for materials. I can build a big 2½" gauge boiler for about £150 but the 'pros' want £800 to £1000

John

[russell]

According to European Directive 97/23/CE 1997 a boiler only needs to be certified and CE marked if it is to be sold ( as new, not second hand) even then the maker can self certify unless the product of the volume in litres and the working pressure in bars exceeds 50. Thus your boiler does not need to be certified. However yours insurers and the owners of any track you wish to use may enforce their own requirements.

Russell.

[baggo]

Hi Russell,

In the UK you are not allowed to run in any public place e.g. club or exhibition without the proper certification which can only be obtained by having the proper tests carried out by a person qualified to do so.

John

[russell]

Hi John,

Who doesn't allow you to run? I don't think it is a legal requirement. It is probably the insurers.

If you run on a private track you can do (almost) what you like.

Here in France we can do our own boiler testing witnessed by one other club member to satisfy the club's insurers.

Russell.

[baggo]

Hi Russell,

It probably is the insurers who insist on it but I'm not actually sure. I think the government at the time decided it would be a 'good' idea to include model boilers in the same category as full size steam boilers and that they should be covered by the same health and safety rules.

I remember setting a fellow 2½" gauge Association member off on a rant when I mentioned the need for captive valve spindles under the new rules. I'd never heard him swear before ;D

[dickdastardly40]

Thank-you very much for your replies, very interesting! It seems then that just because a boiler is either old or the certs have run out that there could be life in an old dog. What is required is a pragmatic inspector with an endoscope and thickness gauge.

Al

[cotswold]

The main UK umbrella main organisations (Southern Federation, Northern Association, MPBA and others) together with the insurers have agreed a common set of rules for certification of boilers. Few, if any, UK clubs will allow a visiting loco, traction engine or boat to be steamed unless it has a valid test certificate. However,the rules are straight forward and make common sense and are issued by clubs that are members of those organisations.

There will always be some who believe that "no club means no certificate" is a catch-22 but I have no intention of getting into that debate.

A Google search threw up the following, both are slightly out of date but in all other respects seem to ne correct..

<http://www.chrisjward.co.uk/id18.htm>

<http://www.communigate.co.uk/wilts/northwiltsmes/page21.phtml>

[russell]

Hi Mike,

So it's the UK clubs, or their umbrella orginisation that sets the rules. We can't blame the government or the HSE then!

Regards,
Russell.

[cotswold]

Apr 30, 2008 7:18:33 GMT russell said:

Hi Mike,

So it's the UK clubs, or their umbrella orginisation that sets the rules. We can't blame the government or the HSE then!

Regards,
Russell.

It is thanks to the concerted efforts of those umbrella organisations at a time when the HSE were beginning to realise that they were over-stretching their resources that the HSE were able to back out without loss of face!

[alanstepney]

The regulations relating to pressure vessels, as originally proposed, would have put a stop to home made boilers and made regular tests and inspections by qualified inspectors mandatory.
Exactly the same rules as apply to full size steam.

These were pan-European rules that were due to, and have, replaced the rules applicable to pressure vessels used in each country.

A lot of people put in much hard work and due to their efforts, and a superb safety record, we, the model engineering fraternity, have our own set of rules. Or, to be accurate, certain exemptions from the new rules.

As for the original post, " as a boiler was likely out of certification, the value would be lower."

The main reason is that any boiler that does not have a certificate is an unknown entity.
Will it pass?

Does it not have a certificate because no-one in their right mind would give it one?

At least a train of certificates shows that it was built properly, and was up to standard at some point in its life.

[stantheman]

The reply from 'Cotswold' on this subject is basically correct. My involvement with the S'Fed committee for over 16 years, before/during and after the problems with government intervention being the big issue about boiler safety/testing in the UK, does show that without their efforts, and the efforts of the other groups, we may have been in a worse position now.
Anyone that takes the trouble to read the Southern Federations 'Red Book' on boiler examination and testing would see that there are no hidden issues, so long as everyone runs the same race.

As previously said, we in the UK, those at least that support their local clubs/societies, should be grateful for the help of these 'umbrella organisations' on this issue.

Stantheman.

[Shawki Shlemon]

Hi
This topic has been covered in details in the past. However different countries have different rules and standards ,one has to observe the rules and standards of the country he/she is in . In OZ we have a code for copper boilers and one for steel boilers, these are written/amended by AMBSC which covers Australia and Zealand , they are recognized by the government and insurance and therefore we comply with them 100% .As per our codes ,NO ,continuity is not required , All boilers are numbered and therefore records are traceable . The extent of inspection and testing of Unknown/imported boilers are at the discretion of the boiler inspector . Keeping the records is part of good maintenance practice .It is in everyone's interest to operate safely and rules are there to protect us from ourselves .
Let us not be too confident because of our good record , we want to keep it like that .
Bear in mind that boiler inspectors are not there to get you ,but to protect you (the boiler owner) and ever body else too .

[circlip]

This is one of the subjects that deserves an extension of the smiley library, and where I can usually find a humorous tilt on most subjects, this is one that we should ALL take seriously. In another hobby interest, I've seen A 61 powered missile enter a caravan through the window, know of three deaths caused by A "toy" GLIDER and now we have toy aircraft fitted with active blowlamps flying around. What has this to do with this thread? We have fire and a potential bomb trundling round a track or on the water, so all the self opinionated crap about "It doesn't apply to me cos I play on my own" should be firmly binned, or the protagonists given a lobotomy. Harsh words? ANY excuse by some nimbys to stop us playing are jumped on by the authorities,(Not many places you can sail a toy boat powered with a "diesel" nowadays due to the noise police) so lets not be complacent about this.
In NO WAY am I trying to demean another member of this forum, but how many of us would be happy at this point in time to buy James' steam plant WITHOUT testing the boiler, given the burner saga we have witnessed?? Until you actually consider the knock on effects of a boiler explosion everything in the garden is rosy. In the event of an accident or god forbid fatality who pays for your mortgage, bills, job etc.? And don't be fooled into thinking that a flash steam boiler running at 1K PSI makes a BIGGER bang than one at 30PSI in the event of a failure, the little ones are far more destructive.
There were cries of shock and horror when it was first stated that our toys would need certifying for safety, but thank heavens that after the initial hiccups with "The Authorities" initially being involved, that we have once again settled into a common sense approach, yep, I know there are still some twits about, there always will be, but let's not get complacent, PLAY SAFELY. Regards Ian.

[Laurie_B]

I agree with the above posts,that you cannot take cavalier risks with steam boilers.

Some years ago I worked for Eagle Star,as an Engineer Surveyor.The term Boiler Inspector had ceased to be trendy!
Upon joining the company,as part of the induction course,various slides,photographs and exhibits were trundled out of their 'Black Museum'.Quite honestly the damage that can be done by the failure of boilers and indeed pressure vessels in general has to be seen to be believed.The explosion of a relatively small Hartley & Sugden boiler in Lancashire in the 1980's demolished a whole mill building.The crown and safety valves were never found.

There is heck of a lot of stored energy in even a small boiler,including the latent heat of evaporation.Remember,the boiling point of water increases with pressure.Suddenly release that pressure (say typically 100 psig) due to a boiler failure,and you then have water at atmospheric pressure and about 150 deg C.Doesn't bare thinking about!

The original 'Steam Boiler Regulations' (now the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations) were brought into force because,by the mid nineteenth century,about ten people PER DAY were being killed because of boiler explosions.So there is a very good reason to play safe with steam!

[alanstepney]

I do feel that we, the average model engineer, dont give enough credit to the people who worked on our behalf to reach the situation we have today, instead of what may have been imposed upon us, had they not been doing so much on our behalf.
I am sure that it must have taken a lot of time, together with plenty of technical knowledge to support their arguments.

As for boiler explosions, yes, one just has to look at some of the old photographs to see what damage can be done.

[steam4ian]

G'day all
I agree with those endorsing codes like the AMBSC. In fact I commend them to anybody considering boilers. In my professional capacity I have come to know my way around a number of codes. The AMBSC codes rank among the best and most helpful I have read. Follow the codes, do sound workmanship, get the inspections and tests and you can't go wrong. If we want to play trains let our play include abiding by the rules that apply to the big boys. There is a certain irony in running locos with laisse faire boiler construction on tracks regulated by reproduced authentic signaling systems.

Regards,
Ian