commercial regulators?

[Deleted]

hi guys

I'm hoping to be able to get back to working on Lassie (3 1/2" gauge) at some point in the near future and one of the first things that I need to do it stop the regulator valve/body from leaking. This was built by the OB and let's just say it's being a little problematic. It's to LBSC's sliding valve design and I'm toying with the idea of scraping it and fitting something better. So my question is, are there any commercial regulators available that may fit with a little modification and if so where shall I look.

All ideas welcome

Regards

Pete

[pault]

Hi Pete,
Commercial ball valves make very good regulators, and are available in a variety of materials to suite your tastes. If you can find one like this but a bit smaller you are laughing.
www.vip-ltd.co.uk/dynamic/viewitem.php?item=01/0094/015
Unfortunately this company only do these in ½” BSP which whilst ideal for 7 ¼” is a bit big for 3 1/2. The straight through ones work fine it’s just arranging the operating rod or the main steam pipe that is a pain. I have retro fitted about 5 of these and they give a smooth progressive regulator which is trouble free for many years.
About time you stopped playing with cars and got on with some proper work, I look forward to more of your posts on HL and FS
Regards
Paul

[steamjohn248]

We use commercial ball valves in all our locos plus marine steam plant. If you get the valve suited for the duty they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Look at the FLOWTECH cat. If they do not sell it probably hasn't been invented.

I've posted on this subject in the past, there is probably some way of lookming in the archive.

Steamjohn

[jma1009]

hi pete,

glad to hear you may be back in the workshop again soon!

on removing the old regulator and all it's LBSC designed parts plus the steam pipe, you may find that the steam pipe is the culprit. often the threads cut in the copper pipe pierce the pipe if the wrong gauge pipe is used (it should be quite thick walled pipe, but ive had to repair a few for friends where the pipe has been too thin). getting the steam pipe out isnt easy! i usually beef up the ends of the steam pipe by silver soldering a bronze sleeve to the ends and increasing the size of the threaded parts that fit on the regulator body and bush in the smokebox tubeplate. on a couple of my own locos ive silver soldered a fitting on the smokebox end with holes for the wet header bolts (stainless) to go through, these bolts screwing into the smokebox steampipe bush silver soldered to the smokebox tubeplate, thereby doing away with one source of possible leakage at that end. the other end is screwed into the regulator body as normal. i think it is one of the most difficult bits of a boiler IMHO, hollow blower longitudinal stays being similar.

i very much doubt you will be able to fit a plumbing valve as described by others in your heilan lassie boiler...there simply isnt enough room and the commercial valves are far too big for 3/4" scale.

2 of my other locos have disc in tube regulators and assembling those is a piece of cake compared to yours!

i have yet to make a regulator that doesnt leak slightly via the regulator valve on a hydraulic test, and i havent come across anyone else who has managed to make an LBSC type regulator leak proof on a hydraulic test. this is despite all my locos having dome plugs for filling the boiler which i can also use to add steam oil direct to the regulator valve. however this isnt really a problem in practice, as a very small leak doesnt affect the operation of the loco in steam. i make up blanking plates for the hot header ends or steam pipe connections from the hot header to the cylinders for hydraulic tests. this also has the advantage of pressure testing the superheaters on a hydraulic test, which i consider to be good practice. however a bit of thought is required in designing the smokebox innards to make this relatively easy.

incidentally i dont like wet headers or hot headers that get in the way of the tubes... impossible to clean them otherwise, and often a bit of thought results in a much better arrangement than many published designs...so you might want to consider this too.

anyway take out the old regulator steampipe and the regulator body and have a look at them on the bench and under a good light. the holes in the boiler barrel for the regulator body screws will need re-using, so dont throw away the old regulator body yet!

cheers,
julian

[Deleted]

Thanks for the input, Paul,John and julian..

I have been looking at ball valves and still am, trying to find one small enough and that will handle the heat, plus shaped suitably to fit in the same two holes as for the LBSC valve.
I hear what your saying regarding the steam pipe Julian, in fact I have actually changed the pipe for a thicker wall and I'm 99% sure that it seals ok but I've lost any faith in getting the valve to seal well enough, admittedly I've only tested it with compressed air which I guess will leak easier than water( alas I don't have the equipment for doing a hydraulic test) but the leak is a pretty big one. It's annoying as there's not that much that needs doing to get this loco in steam, well at least I don't think there is or should i say hope there is..lol
After trying to fix something when your not sure about it's quality of build( It was built by the OB) you tend to loose all faith of ever getting the thing to work, well I have...
So I thought that I may try something else with a ball valve being the highest item on my list, there are some pretty small valves out there but I have no idea if they will stand up to the rigors of steam, I guess there's only one way to find out.

Hopefully if I get it to work Paul I'll be able to get back to doing Lassie and FS, I'm really missing working on FS...
As for the car it's still not finished, but the engine short block has been rebuilt and is looking good, that alone has set me back over £5k and other than a rebore I've done all of the work myself...

Thanks again guys, I'm sure with your encouragement I'll soon get back into the swing of things, I still have soooooo much to do...lol

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,

you can connect up the tender and use the tender handpump for a hydraulic test! just dont go overboard beyond the limits of the loco pressure gauge unless you remove it and fit a different gauge somewhere!

i remember struggling with a MAISEE bought by a friend at auction where the steam pipe leaked, and it took ages to fix. in fact it would have taken less time to replace the whole darned assembly! the horizontal sliding regulator on heilan lassie has to have the 'keeps' for the valve quite accurately made and fitted and the valve obviously has to be the same thickness all over. the operating mechanism imparts a rotary movement which isnt ideal, and clearances need to be 'just so' otherwise the valve can tilt. if anyone has made one that doesnt leak and how im sure we would all be very intersted to hear from them!

anyway if the steam pipe is ok (which is quite a major and awkward job to replace...well done!) then a small leak on the valve is ok in my book. there is a way of testing the assembly by filling the boiler to just below the valve with water, and pressure testing. if water comes out the smokebox end it's the steam pipe, if its air its the valve.

when seating valves such as this, subject to the above comments about thickness and the guides/'keeps', move it only in the direction it moves using brasso as a grinding paste. if the 'keeps' arent tight, a bash with a punch in the appropriate place will usually do the trick as long as the 'keep' screws arent loose or the holes on the 'keeps' anything other than dead clearance size on the screws.

cheers,
julian

[Deleted]

Sept 28, 2012 22:14:22 GMT jma1009 said:

a bash with a punch in the appropriate place will usually do the trick as long as the 'keep' screws arent loose or the holes on the 'keeps' anything other than dead clearance size on the screws.

cheers,
julian

Thanks for the help Julian, it's interesting that you mention these holes as they are indeed a loose fit for the screws. I had assumed it wasn't to important as when operating the regulator handle it pulls the valve tight against the valve body, or at least I thought it had? Perhaps I should make new parts and give it one more try, although the last thing I need now is yet another failed attempt. I need it to work so that I can move on... it was.. er getting a little tedious before I put everything away to get on with my car engine.

Pete

[pault]

Hi Pete,
If there are no leaks from the main steam pipe or regulator body (in the case of a fabrication or casting) then assuming the valve is shut, the cause of the leak is that either the operating mechanism cock’s the valve over so that it slightly lifts off the face or the faces are not flat. In the case of the first obviously the problem with the linkage needs to be addressed. In the cases of the second I have had some success with making PTFE faced regulator valves. Basically if you imagine the normal bronze slide, pocketed out on the working face so that it has a, say 1mm wall around it and is about 4mm deep. Make up a PTFE insert that is a slightly loose fit in the pocket and is about 4.5mm high. This type of valve will still leak when there is no pressure (it may leak more that the original) but as the pressure rises the PTFE gives slightly allowing the valve to sit down on the face and seal. Generally as the pressure rises the sealing of the valve quickly improves until it stops leaking totally.
Quite often the LBSC style regulators are better under steam than they are cold, it may be worth steaming the boiler as it is just to get a feel for how bad it is.
Regards
Paul

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2012 10:15:15 GMT pault said:

Hi Pete,
If there are no leaks from the main steam pipe or regulator body (in the case of a fabrication or casting) then assuming the valve is shut, the cause of the leak is that either the operating mechanism cock’s the valve over so that it slightly lifts off the face or the faces are not flat. In the case of the first obviously the problem with the linkage needs to be addressed. In the cases of the second I have had some success with making PTFE faced regulator valves. Basically if you imagine the normal bronze slide, pocketed out on the working face so that it has a, say 1mm wall around it and is about 4mm deep. Make up a PTFE insert that is a slightly loose fit in the pocket and is about 4.5mm high. This type of valve will still leak when there is no pressure (it may leak more that the original) but as the pressure rises the PTFE gives slightly allowing the valve to sit down on the face and seal. Generally as the pressure rises the sealing of the valve quickly improves until it stops leaking totally.
Quite often the LBSC style regulators are better under steam than they are cold, it may be worth steaming the boiler as it is just to get a feel for how bad it is.
Regards
Paul

Hi Paul

Thanks again for your help, I will try again on the regulator... regarding testing it under steam, I guess I could try this with the boiler off of the chassis. A question though, is it possible to raise steam without a blower etc, hmm come to think of it I haven't bought any coal yet either...lol, well taking it I can find some coal is it possible to do as I ask? never tried to raise steam before...lol

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,
i wouldnt try steaming the boiler till you are ready...for one thing it makes a terrible mess of everything which makes any further work dirty and difficult!
you will need to remove the dome cover.
if you can get the regulator valve off without removing the regulator body, then check it for same thickness all over. with your loose guides/keeps, try increasing the thickness of the sides of the regulator valve where they fit in the keeps, so it is tight and wont lift or tilt (soft solder some shim onto the valve). a bit of brasso will then do wonders on the regulator valve and keeps and their wearing surfaces on the sides of the valve to bed it all in so it moves relatively freely without any slop. dont let the brasso dry out. if the keeps arent parallel with the body/valve face then i would loctite the keeps and their screw in position and see if you can bend down the offending edges with the valve in position. not quite 'hit it wiv an 'ammer' but a few judicial taps with a hammer and punch in the relevant spots should do the trick. crude but effective. im assuming that the keeps and their screws cant be removed easily without removing the steam pipe and regulator body...and you dont want to upset your new steam pipe fixing after all your previous hard work. what you are aiming for is a tight sliding valve that cant tilt and is kept hard on the valve face. after removing the valve after bedding in, and cleaning off the brasso, a few drops of good quality oil will work wonders and you will have a good sliding fit.
i then think you will find all will be ok and a marked improvement on what you found before.
it is worth checking (as im sure you have already done) that the valve is actually closed in the closed position!
i agree with pault that in theory in steam (and in theory on air and a hydraulic test) you have pressure against the valve on a regulator body that will keep it against the valve face. again agreeing with pault, of the three, a steam test will produce the best results.
if you apply chapelon principles to the steam circuit there should be ample supply to the cylinders without any restriction anywhere between regulator and cylinder. even in miniature this can give a loco that little bit extra, which is worth bearing in mind and can be recommended. the same also applies to the larger exhaust circuit.
cheers,
julain

[pault]

Hi Pete,
Should you choose to steam the boiler there are a number of ways of skinning the cat. You need to remember that you are only creating pressure not running anything so you don’t need a big fire. Bottom line for any of them is to fit a pressure gauge, safety valve, and a water gauge and blank off anything else apart from the regulator. If the boiler has the lagging on great, of not try to insulate it with whatever you have to hand. I would sit the boiler so the tubes are pointing very slightly up hill and fill it slowly with hot water to the top of the glass. The choices for heat sources in my book are wood or gas. If you want to use wood you will need a grate and just use a fire lighter and some very dry kindling wood. It will be slow but you will get there. The other option is to use a blow lamp (propane or butane) with a very gentle flame it first pointed up into the fire box towards the tubes. I have steamed 7 ¼ “ boilers both ways, it’s not quick but it can be done.

Maybe the place to start is to blue the valve with engineers blue and see what story that tells, it will tell you whether a lap with Brasso will do or if something more serious is needed.

Julain is totally correct about applying ”Chapelon principles to the steam circuit” it will give you an edge, although there can be a “down side”. I applied the principles to a loco I rebuilt and it was everything that it should be, however the very large free flowing exhaust system resulted in a very quiet and muffled exhaust even when working full gear and full regulator. As a result initially I found it was not that easy to drive with a heavy load, it surprised me just how much you drive by ear. This is not a reason not to apply the principles, however if you want a loco that will “talk to you” applying them may result in disappointment. That said I would do it the same way again.

Hopefully you will overcome this quickly.

Regards
Paul

[jma1009]

hi pete

if you must steam the boiler, then use a propane torch at this stage due to its relative cleaness.

pault's suggestion of using engineers blue can be recommended. i think you will find that following our suggestions all will be ok and you wont have to try steaming the boiler. ive never steamed a new loco or an overhauled loco till its all finished and on the track!

i know 7.25"g loco owners often use firelighters, but can i please make a plea for those lighting fires on 3.5"g and 5"g locos to NEVER use them. the tubes will get coated with thick tar. nothing beats LBSC's charcoal soaked in paraffin (though i use BBQ lighter fuel as the smell and fumes are less offensive). we once had a large can of 'paraffin type' liquid given to the club...it turned out to be embalming fluid and although it burnt very well 2 members ended up in bed for a week after inhaling the fumes! (dont buy a house near a crematorium either!)

cheers,
julian

[Deleted]

Hi Paul, Julian


Now if only you guys lived next door...lol

I have had another quick look and I must have already rebuilt the link arms as there is no play and they are brass, I'm sure they were stainless before so perhaps I made a temp set to try and fix the problem.. my mind is a little forgetful these days..lol
Also there's no lift that I can detect and I have already put some steam oil to try and help seal. I may try making another valve as although the current valve does cover the opening in both open and closed positions it looks a little close for comfort, of course I realise that to make the valve bigger to ensure it closes properly will also restrict how far it opens, worth a try though. Regarding steaming the boiler, all of the fittings have already been fitted and tested for leaks so not much to do for steaming, just fix the valve and refit the dome... oh if only it was that easy... I was so,so close to steaming months ago, all except for this stupid valve...lol. Well at least that's what I thought back then, I bet there will be other horrors awaiting me before she finally raises steam in anger, I still haven't looked at the tender to make sure all there works as it should.
I will try to get this loco ready for the next season though, that's my new goal, get her in steam asap... that's for this year I hope and then do the finishing touches over winter.

Sounds easy doesn't it?....lol

Cheers guys

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,
'have a go' as wifred pickles used to say! im sure your regulator closes ok... it doesnt take much... after all a disc in tube regulator with 3 ports has very little leeway. you just need to get past that psychological barrier to get at the loco again... it happens to us all from time to time, when things put us off. i havent been in the workshop for 3 months due to work, though i'm itching to get cracking on STEPNEY again! i would recommend a test as described with the water below the valve but covering the steam pipe just to check that is ok... a small leak on the valve isnt anything to worry about, though you need to think of blanking off the steam pipes to the cylinders for the dreaded official hydraulic test. i make my steam pipe connections from the hot header with flat nipples (same as per steam and delivery connections on an injector) and make up annealed copper discs to fit in place for the hydraulic test. a small 'O' ring can be added as well if you have room. fiddly, but i havent come across a loco yet that has a perfectly sealing regulator for an official hydraulic test, and no point trying to achieve the impossibe, especially in 3.5"g. there was a time when a leaking regulator (and inability to maintain pressure on a hydraulic test) was ignored - that isnt the case these days... hence the blanking discs.

cheers,
julian

[Deleted]

Here's a question guy's... has anyone tried using a drain-cock as a Regulator valve, I was just checking out eBay for something when I noticed some draincocks, they look like small ball valves to me which got me thinking. Anyone done this, if so did it work and if not why?

regards

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,
you can use a ball valve if you like, but your loco will have only 2 speeds... stop and full steam! (or in railway terminolgy 'all or nothing')
ball valves also have a tendency to leak and i wouldnt want to put one inside a boiler.... they are ok as drain valves coz of the oil they get. a standard LBSC whistle valve can leak if any muck gets carried over to the ball seat eg if the loco primes. very awkward to dismantle to clean once the loco is assembled and cab fitted.
stick with your sliding regulatr valve!
cheers,
julian

[Deleted]

I know Julian, I should just get on and do the sliding valve but when I saw these it got me thinking, why would it not be proportionate? I thought it would work just like a washing machine tap, ball with hole through it that can be turned 90 degrees for on or off. Surely any setting between 0-90 degrees would vary the speed accordingly?

Pete

[AndrewP]

The nicest regulator I have used is on a very well made Speedy, I am told it is just the standard screw down one so I am hoping my Rob Roy one ends up as nice to use.

Andy

[Rex Hanman]

Never had a spot of bother with my Rob Roy regulator. Dead simple and nothing to go wrong. Just make sure to leave it open when cooling down. Even if you forget it frees off when it warms up.

Simples!

[pault]

Hi Pete,
Commercial ball valves are as you describe a ball with a hole in it which can be rotated to line up with holes through the body. They are available in a range of materials and are quite happy at the pressures and temperatures we are talking about. They are smooth to operate, are gradual to operate and are ideal for a regulator. Ball valves used for whistles normally push a ball off a seat to open and would not be suited. Drain cocks as sold for use on locos are normally taper cocks and I would not put one on a boiler, they are prone to leaking and sticking in applications where they do not see any oil.
If you fancy a trip round the M25 on a Sunday you are welcome to try out locos with ball valves as regulators
Regards
paul