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Post by Donald G on Mar 4, 2013 18:53:27 GMT
Hello Taff.
Many years ago I bought a second hand 13xx 5" gauge as a' runner'. It turned out not to be but seller would not refund. Although I have had it for many years it took me a long time to get it working well. Last summer, having got it to work, and using it on Colchesters raised track, I ran out of steam after about 1/2 a lap. Yes the firebox and hence grate are very small, grate is 2 5/8 long . I worked out that the loco as purchased had 1 1/4" bore cylinders. I sleeved these to 1 inch bore, new pistons and PTFE rings and loco is a lot better, can now get 2 laps of the track which is about 2/5 of a mile. If you want any further info please contact me.
Donald
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 4, 2013 22:56:28 GMT
hi peter, as others have said, i dont feel you have anything to worry about the grate area. in fact it is rather more than i expected. it is less than martin evans' BOXHILL (9" sq grate area) and about the same as don young's very successful RAILMOTOR grate area. having steamed my own RAILMOTOR for 4-5 hours at a time i dont think there should be any problems whatsoever so long as the cylinder bore is in the region of 1 1/16" and not more. your boiler has the added advantage of the wider firebox and consequently better tube layout, and added steam space due to the raised firebox crown. so long as you make full use of the potential greater free gas flow through plenty of tubes which i would suggest be 7/16" dia rather than 3/8" dia, and 2 x 3/4" dia superheater flues. cheers, julian
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peteh
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Post by peteh on Mar 5, 2013 0:18:46 GMT
Personally I think a design thread is a wonderful idea - may motivate others to give it a go as well.
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taff
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President of City of Newport M.E.S. Chairman, Rivet Counters Fellowship.
Posts: 161
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Post by taff on Mar 8, 2013 19:18:23 GMT
Hello all, Got the basic's of the main frames up on the board but I have a poblem in that I want to work from the official Swindon General arrangement drawings and have tried to get these from the NRM. At present I'm working from the GA's of the 1366 class which were the later development but already I can see differences in the frames which need to be allowed for in the 1361's. I know that the NRM now have the official G.A.'s because I've got the old OPC lists and code numbers for these drawings. I've tried to get copy's from there but nobody at the NRM seems to know what I'm talking about. Does anyone else experience this problem wih the NRM or is it just me. Anyhow things are moving on and the frame drawing and the initial boiler drawings are coming on nicely. Also I've been in touch with the Pete Thomas of Polly and he is interested in various laser cuts etc., so maybe we're on our way,
Taff.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2013 19:44:05 GMT
Hello all, Got the basic's of the main frames up on the board but I have a poblem in that I want to work from the official Swindon General arrangement drawings and have tried to get these from the NRM. At present I'm working from the GA's of the 1366 class which were the later development but already I can see differences in the frames which need to be allowed for in the 1361's. I know that the NRM now have the official G.A.'s because I've got the old OPC lists and code numbers for these drawings. I've tried to get copy's from there but nobody at the NRM seems to know what I'm talking about. Does anyone else experience this problem wih the NRM or is it just me. Anyhow things are moving on and the frame drawing and the initial boiler drawings are coming on nicely. Also I've been in touch with the Pete Thomas of Polly and he is interested in various laser cuts etc., so maybe we're on our way, Taff. Sounds like your making good progress Pete and good work in talking to Polly, I can also highly recommend Malcolm at 'Model Engineers Laser' for good quality laser work. Can't help with regards to experience in getting drawings from NRM, I've been very fortunate for drawings that I've needed with help from fellow members here and also from the LNER forum who have a wealth of info for my chosen Locomotives.. Cheers Pete
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2013 21:37:15 GMT
I've tried to get copy's from there but nobody at the NRM seems to know what I'm talking about. Does anyone else experience this problem wih the NRM or is it just me. I recently obtained a whole lot of drawings from the NRM for a BR standard loco, and they were very helpful. Providing you have the drawing number and the name of the works (Swindon/Derby/Brighton etc) that produced it, you should have no difficulty. If you go in person, they will let you view the microfilm on a viewer, but you have to tell them the drawing number first. Copies are a fiver each, which is reasonable until you realise the larger drawings were microfilmed in two halves!
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 8, 2013 22:01:21 GMT
superseven, that is incredibly interesting... never knew it was so cheap! i paid a fortune for some copies of glass plate negatives some years ago, and have quite a few works drawings from before the NRM took over (all signed by the relevant regional CME including J F Harrison). ive got all the drawing numbers i need for some ex-SR drawings i need so will give them a call on monday. the quick answer to peter is that the NRM catalogued the ex-LNER drawings first, and the GWR drawings (which we could easily obtain from Swindon or Jim Russell years ago at the drop of a hat) are still uncatalogued. hence the BETTON GRANGE group having to spend days going through the whole of the GWR lot to find what was useful to them. another instance of LNER bias in the NRM! Harold Holcroft describes how he found a roll of drawings for the ex cornwall railways locos that he based the 1361 class on... so im sure all will be at the NRM (somewhere!!). if all else fails, one of us would be pleased to photograph and measure up the surviving loco for peter! cheers, julian
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Post by marshall5 on Mar 9, 2013 9:46:58 GMT
Taff, I presume you've asked the GWS at Didcot if they have a set of drawings for their 1363? Ray.
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taff
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Post by taff on Mar 10, 2013 13:55:41 GMT
Hello all, its myself again, Many thanks for all of your comments and suggestions and please keep them coming, I cannot promises to include or adopt them all but I assure you that will all be considered and hopefully some good will come out of them even if its only for those of you reading this site. Marshalls, I am an honary life member at Didcot (2313) and I am responsible for most of the design work for the new "Saint" and other loco's. Knowing this you would think that Didcot would have been the first place I would look but (shamefully) I have to admit that it didn't occur to me, so many thanks, Ray, for bringing GWS to the fore. Re 1363, I have written an article about these engines which I have forwarded to ME for publication and I will have more to say about that engine and the others in future posts because 1363 is not quite what she seems. One thing for consideration is the thickness of the main frames. In 5" gauge this is usually 1/8" but for a small engine like this I am considering 12 gauge. Also I am considering 1/16" for the buffer beams to get scale effect. Your comments would be appreciated. I'm going to have a few hours on the drawing board now. If anyone saw my earlier post, sorry about that, I pressed the wrong key by mistake and it got sent early. Ta ff.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 19:56:42 GMT
One thing for consideration is the thickness of the main frames. In 5" gauge this is usually 1/8" but for a small engine like this I am considering 12 gauge. Also I am considering 1/16" for the buffer beams to get scale effect. Your comments would be appreciated. Steel sheet seems to be sold only in metric thicknesses nowadays, so I think you will be looking at 2.5mm for the main frames and 1.6mm for the buffer beams. Whilst talking of 1363, you might be interested to know that I drove her quite a lot in the late 1970's. She's certainly a game little engine, but a little short of braking power, as ony four of her six wheels are braked! It's good to see that she's on the road to recovery now.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 10, 2013 20:44:40 GMT
hi peter,
i am a little concerned that you are thinking of anything other than 3mm plate for the buffer beams and frames. the running boards go over the tops of the frames so you cant see how thick they are unless you look underneath or at the frame cutouts. so far as buffer beams are concerned i mill mine to scale thickness where they project beyond the valances.
if you want to produce a 'popular' design that is sturdy and workmanlike, plus has the advantage of being able to haul a decent load by virtue of some adhesive weight (as opposed to sitting 'stuffed' in a glass case) then certain compromises are required so far as scale is concerned IMHO. i have always thought there is an element of trickery of the eye required when producing a scale loco, the eye being drawn to intricate details and the finish of the platework and fittings.
if you were to apply your reasoning to the wheels then they wouldnt comply with SMEE standards and would most likely derail on some club tracks.
one needs to draw the line somewhere between 'scale' and 'practical'. i have the frames for keith wilson's 'dukedog' in 5"g but after making them wasnt happy at all that a practical working loco would result - they are only i think 1/16" thick!
i am guessing that your proposed 4 3/16" over the firebox wrapper is the source of your problem. i think you will have to go down to 3 3/4" dia barrel. there are quite a few designs with 4 1/4" between the frames in 5"g, which is the very max. this leaves precious little as im sure you have noted for the firebox width you've quoted plus any errors and ends of stays etc and expansion. a 3 3/4" barrel with 3 15/16" over the firebox sides gives a bit more to play with.
cheers, julian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 21:48:01 GMT
Hello chaps----------- Hi TAFF, I'm inclined to the same line of thinking as Julian re}---- adhesive weight, robustness etc.... and the supply of metric sheet steel, so 3mm for mainframes/buffers would be my choice...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 22:33:41 GMT
I must admit I wouldn't be too happy with 1.6mm buffer beams - there's always the risk that someone will lift your loco by its buffers, even if you never do it yourself!
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RLWP
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by RLWP on Mar 10, 2013 23:36:17 GMT
I think you are spot on with 1/16" buffer beams, especially the front one.
Time to let LBSC's caution go
Richard
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 10, 2013 23:43:19 GMT
hi peter, another solution to the firebox width problem is to use my earlier proposed boiler design omitting the raised firebox. 4" dia tube could then be used for the barrel and outer firebox with an extension piece on the left hand side to give the required depth to the outer firebox. the raised firebox isnt that distinctive in fullsize and could be quite easily simulated by cleading around the firebox inside the cab. the whole boiler construction (and saddle tank) is then much simplified. also 4" dia tube is much cheaper than 3 3/4" tube which is no longer a standard size (but is required for lots of miniature locos). just a thought! cheers, julian
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 11, 2013 15:39:52 GMT
Doug Hewson suggests 2.5mm plate for the CL4 main frames. Given enough staying that will be fine. I'd probably go with 2mm for the buffer beams rather than 1.5
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taff
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President of City of Newport M.E.S. Chairman, Rivet Counters Fellowship.
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Post by taff on Mar 11, 2013 16:39:52 GMT
Hello all, Just a few words for now while I think about it. Does anyone know from where I can get a "Drop compass" for use with my pens. Just in case you don;t know what a Drop Compass is (I didn't until I got one ), I describe it as follows. It has a central post which also forms the centre point. The post has a body which revolves around the main pin and which carry's the pen/pencil etc.,. The tool allows very small circles to be drawn. My own drop compass disappeared recently, probably got caught up in rubbish drawing paper and thrown out.
Taff
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 16:57:44 GMT
Doug Hewson suggests 2.5mm plate for the CL4 main frames. Nothing to do with the 1361 class, but I thought I'd just mention this. The full size 4MT frame plates are 1.1/4" thick, which scales to 2.8mm. This is nearer to 3mm than 2.5mm!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 21:20:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 21:40:35 GMT
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