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Post by 92220 on Aug 26, 2019 18:52:10 GMT
Hi Roger.
Mo I've always used the lever feed on the quill head, for drilling. I just never thought to use the screw feed. I have only ever drilled 0.6mm dia x .125" deep once. I did it just to see if I could. I have drilled a number of 0.8mm dia through approx 0.150" deep. I was drilling the holes for the screws that hold the washout plug pockets to the clothing. I turned up 8 rings out of 0.004" shim steel and then held them all together on the turned mandrel I used to turn them, with a 1/16" steel pad top and bottom, held tight with a 2BA cap screw, then set the whole lot up in a chuck on the rotary table and drilled the 6 mounting holes through the 1/16" backing washer,8 off 0.004" rings and the 1/16" base washer (theoretical total 0.157"). I did it this way to make sure the holes in the 0.004" shims drilled neatly. The rings were then soft soldered onto the 'miniature tubs of the pockets, with a dummy square washout plug in them. These can then be mounted with the M0.8mm screws and nuts I got from Knupfer. The next experiment is to drill and tap M0.6mm to see if I can tap that size without too many breakages. I will use your tip of drilling with the screw feed, carbide then HSS, though!! Thanks for the tip on carbide drills wandering and drilling oversize at depth.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Aug 26, 2019 19:47:56 GMT
This is going to be the handle grip on the valve lever. I've centred the end so I can support it. That way I can use this really large radius LH tipped tool to get the root radius before the flange. The angle is 2.5 degrees, set up on the crude compound slide scale. 20190826_142146 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I don't have any 1mm Silver Steel, so I'm grinding it down from 1.6mm 20190826_145820 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr All ready to Silver Solder with a little collar.... 20190826_151514 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr ... but that ended with a loud bang! I forgot to put a flat on the dowel connecting the two pieces, and there was enough pressure or a detonated drop of oil to blast the handle heaven knows where! So... this is the second handle, this time with a flat on the 1mm Silver Steel dowel and a second toolmaker's clamp to make sure it stays put! 20190826_160723 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20190826_163924 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr It took a second go with a tiny piece of Silver Solder perched across the joint to make it bridge. It looks a mess, but there's very little depth to the Silver Solder 20190826_171846 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Anyway, this is roughly where it's going to sit. The handle has to pass the foot peg that's going to be sticking out of the far bolt on the quadrant. It's going to need operating with the little finger I reckon. I've placed a round rod where the rectangular push rod will go through the spectacle plate. I need to finalise the position of that and add the holes to the model and the footplate. It's going to sit a bit further forward than that. 20190826_203409 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20190826_203424 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20190826_203453 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by simplyloco on Aug 26, 2019 20:53:56 GMT
This is going to be the handle grip on the valve lever. I've centred the end so I can support it. That way I can use this really large radius LH tipped tool to get the root radius before the flange. The angle is 2.5 degrees, set up on the crude compound slide SNIP Very nice indeed. I set my first go at the bronze reverser handle at 2 something degrees, and it landed up looking like a carrot, but yours looks fine. I found 1.25 about right for mine. John
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Post by Roger on Aug 26, 2019 21:23:15 GMT
This is going to be the handle grip on the valve lever. I've centred the end so I can support it. That way I can use this really large radius LH tipped tool to get the root radius before the flange. The angle is 2.5 degrees, set up on the crude compound slide SNIP Very nice indeed. I set my first go at the bronze reverser handle at 2 something degrees, and it landed up looking like a carrot, but yours looks fine. I found 1.25 about right for mine. John Thanks John, I model these things I don't have drawings for on the relative size they appear to be compared to other features in the cab. The handle was fiddled about with while I had photos of the real thing on the screen to try to get it somewhere near how it looks. It may well be quite a bit out if I measured it on the real thing, but it's close enough.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Aug 26, 2019 23:08:11 GMT
Roger's workmanship is pretty clear to all, though myself I make all these bits out of stainless in the cab and on the backhead.
Why John would wish to make a reverser handle out of bronze is quite another matter! Never ever seen in fullsize a bronze reverser handle on a steam loco!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by simplyloco on Aug 26, 2019 23:16:24 GMT
Why John would wish to make a reverser handle out of bronze is quite another matter! Never ever seen in fullsize a bronze reverser handle on a steam loco! Cheers, Julian Because it's my loco and it looks pretty! Perhaps you could show us how you made yours...
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Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2019 6:29:34 GMT
Roger's workmanship is pretty clear to all, though myself I make all these bits out of stainless in the cab and on the backhead. Why John would wish to make a reverser handle out of bronze is quite another matter! Never ever seen in fullsize a bronze reverser handle on a steam loco! Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, It's a fair point about Stainless, and some of it is, such as the pivot pins and shaft on the grate release. The problem with Stainless for levers is that it isn't very strong compared to Gauge Plate, so you can't make them quite as thin. It's also a problem when they need to be black. As far as I can see, the main issue on the footplate is water escaping through leaks on the backhead fittings causing things to rust. With the usual methods of sealing, that's always going to happen, but with 'O' rings on every connection it's only the pipe unions that present a problem. Hopefully there will be very few times when there's water on the footplate and there won't be too many issues with rust. I'll have to make sure any unpainted parts are protected with oil though.
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Post by silverfox on Aug 27, 2019 12:07:11 GMT
Hmmmm
I have never seen Full size gunmetal Cylinders, Gunmetal chimneys,gunmetal axleboxes Stainless valve rods Bioler made entirely of copper etc etc etc...yet there are plenty on miniature locos ,and no doubt on yours, unless.......... So who is right and who is wrong??? I once saw two of the judges at an ME exhibiton deduct marks for a builder using steel for the tender axleboxes instead of gunmetal because it was not correct.. So even the great and good get it wrong.and so get wound up about it? Even Peters A1 is wrong as it has gunmetal cylinders. who is being the first in the queue to have a go at him for being wrong?? If Jon wants an Bronze handle, he makes one . Don't beat yourself up about it. And if you want to really go completely mad, come and have a look at mine. you will no doubt collapse in palpitations and pedantic pointing.
Ron
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Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2019 13:30:06 GMT
Hmmmm I have never seen Full size gunmetal Cylinders, Gunmetal chimneys,gunmetal axleboxes Stainless valve rods Bioler made entirely of copper etc etc etc...yet there are plenty on miniature locos ,and no doubt on yours, unless.......... So who is right and who is wrong??? I once saw two of the judges at an ME exhibiton deduct marks for a builder using steel for the tender axleboxes instead of gunmetal because it was not correct.. So even the great and good get it wrong.and so get wound up about it? Even Peters A1 is wrong as it has gunmetal cylinders. who is being the first in the queue to have a go at him for being wrong?? If Jon wants an Bronze handle, he makes one . Don't beat yourself up about it. And if you want to really go completely mad, come and have a look at mine. you will no doubt collapse in palpitations and pedantic pointing. Ron Hi Ron, You're absolutely right... copper is the 'wrong' material for boilers, Bronze is wrong for Axleboxes (White metal), Brass is wrong for cab sides, Stainless is just wrong anywhere, as is PTFE and 'O' rings.... the list is endless. Our decisions are made on a very different basis to full size practice. Some people just have a near fetish for Brass or Stainless Steel, others won't work with materials they find difficult to cut. Some use whatever's to hand if it's strong enough for the job. My locomotive is very 'wrong' by any of these standards, and that's why I won't be entering it into any competitions for some pedant to tell me so. If it pleases someone to have an all Brass unpainted locomotive, who are any of us to pass judgement? Every builder only has themselves to please. Some of our material choices may seem bizarre or irrational, but we are the ones who have to live with those choices.
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Post by silverfox on Aug 27, 2019 16:06:10 GMT
Roger
I know, sometimes some comments on here just make my urine boil and i have to reply. 99% of the time i let them wash over my head, life's too short to be petty
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Post by delaplume on Aug 27, 2019 19:13:32 GMT
Just some random thoughts generated by the foregoing Authors----
Full-size boilers down the years have been of Wrought Iron ----- Bessemer HT steel ------ Steel outer wrapper with Arsenic Copper inner Firebox, ---- Some have had Brass flue tubes at one point, ------ Monometal stays ----Holllow stays----
The USA S160 and our own WD locomotives made great use of Arc Welding in lieu of nuts and bolts as the designed service life was something like 5 to 10 years max. with the very min. of maintenance expected in a war-time scenario.....How many 5" gauge have mini arc welds on them ???
Incidentally one of the better improvements that Stanier brought to LMS was the introducton of Steel axleboxes on locos compared to the Bronze currently in use at that time...........
As with any competition the competitior must fully read ALL the Conditions of Entry and get things sorted in His /Her mind BEFORE the competition starts...
PS}--- Like Roger I won't enter in any "Competitions" but by the same token I'm happy to put any in our Club Display stand .at a show, ...... and chat with any of you "esteemed" Gentlefolk ( Harr---umph,.....koff, koff ) all day long .....
Alan
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Post by Roger on Aug 27, 2019 20:28:16 GMT
Just some random thoughts generated by the foregoing Authors---- Full-size boilers down the years have been of Wrought Iron ----- Bessemer HT steel ------ Steel outer wrapper with Arsenic Copper inner Firebox, ---- Some have had Brass flue tubes at one point, ------ Monometal stays ----Holllow stays---- The USA S160 and our own WD locomotives made great use of Arc Welding in lieu of nuts and bolts as the designed service life was something like 5 to 10 years max. with the very min. of maintenance expected in a war-time scenario.....How many 5" gauge have mini arc welds on them Incidentally one of the better improvements that Stanier brought to LMS was the introducton of Steel axleboxes on locos compared to the Bronze currently in use at that time........... As with any competition the competitior must fully read ALL the Conditions of Entry and get things sorted in His /Her mind BEFORE the competition starts... PS}--- Like Roger I won't enter in any "Competitions" but by the same token I'm happy to put any in our Club Display stand .at a show, ...... and chat with any of you "esteemed" Gentlefolk ( Harr---umph,.....koff, koff ) all day long ..... Alan Hi Alan, I completely agree about showing our creations. One of my favorites at the shows are the juniors models. For me it's as much about what people do with the skills, materials, machines and budget they have than making the perfect model. It's the same about the subject matter, I enjoy steam punk, helicopters boats or live steam, it's all Engineering and worthwhile.
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Post by silverfox on Aug 27, 2019 21:40:10 GMT
Roger and our elder brethren. Do any of you recall Fred Beard from the Peterborough Society? In the mid 70's he built a GWR Dean Single. Every part as hand made and not one casting was used. TheDriving Wheels were hand cut from solid and the crank axle turned from a single piece of steel. He carved out the emblems each side of the nameplate and the backhead was to scale. He never steamed it but run it once on air to make sure everything was OK. There were two articles in MEM about 1976/7 after he had alked away with the championship cup and the DoE the following year
Roger.Yours is the best i have seen since. Put in in when finished, otherwise Peter may nick it from you!! Better still both of you toss to see who goes first lol
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Post by Oily Rag on Aug 27, 2019 21:42:50 GMT
They are MODELS. If some one wants prototypical to the full size standards then I suggest they stop fluffing about with these models and you work/volunteer at your local heritage railway. Heaven help if you see some Vesconite in a full size loco or rolling stock. Material snobbery = good grief. If you make a loco pre 1900 era I hope you don't use a micrometer, only calipers and ..................... no milling machines allowed, no DRO. No 3D printed waxes for investment casting, no investment casting for that matter, the list goes on.
Keep it hush hush, but I have Mike printing a wax and casting me a saddle for my little garden steamer in White Bronze. Scrutiny with a little considered thought shows this is all utter total nonsense because the argument is only defended by one's own personal bias and where one's personal line is drawn in the sand. 'is the line here, or over there, or....................." If one wants to make a superbly working detailed loco or other model that may take 20 years of toil, so be it. If the want to enter it in competitions, so be it. If they want to make a loco that looks a bit like the prototype to Martin Evans drawings, so be it. In Australia there is often a pissing match that unless your loco is 7 1/4 then you are playing with toys with any other gauge. Even though they have hundreds of visible cap head screws that hold their beast together. Think about it, what a load of nonsense. Have fun and the intrinsic rewards of enjoyment for your own achievements. Sharing this journey with all the fun and anguish with mates at your club or via a forum is living life. Better than sitting down and pissing away the all too precious years watching soapies and moaning about how some one else made some thing. I have said this often, this thread is special. Roger has attacked this build with gusto and a willingness to share that is very rare. He devotes a lot of time and energy to share pictures and text of his processes that he has thought about and chosen. Not many if any in the Model Engineering world have done this to this degree of detail. There is a lot to learn and absorb. I love following his journey and one day I hope to make a special loco (#253 as delivered in 1921). I have worked on this class of engine and I now drive and fire the full size versions (later built versions) and that for me is special. Living the dream. The rewards for me is the making stuff, less about sitting on one and doing laps, but I like passenger hauling, that is fun, but just laps is not me, but hey, do what pleases you. Roger's thread and others are part of my journey of making working models. I am yet to finish one working loco, but slowly getting there.
First world problem.
Go Roger!
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Post by simplyloco on Aug 27, 2019 22:20:40 GMT
They are MODELS. If some wants prototypical to the full size standards then I suggest they stop fluffing about with these models and you work/volunteer at your local heritage railway. Heaven help if you see some Vesconite in a full size loco or rolling stock. Material snobbery = good grief. SNIP The rewards Roger's thread and others are part of my journey of making working models. I am yet to finish one working loco, but slowly getting there.
First world problem.
Go Roger!
An excellent dissertation on the pedantry and prejudice that still exists in our modern ME world! John
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Post by simplyloco on Aug 27, 2019 22:32:13 GMT
SNIP PS}--- Like Roger I won't enter in any "Competitions" but by the same token I'm happy to put any in our Club Display stand .at a show, ...... and chat with any of you "esteemed" Gentlefolk ( Harr---umph,.....koff, koff ) all day long ..... Alan Agreed. My Brit was on display on the LBSC stand at two consecutive Sandown Park exhibitions, even though it was still in grey primer, and I thoroughly enjoyed chatting with the enthusiasts who were not interested in the number of rivets! Mind you, the rivet count is quite accurate... John
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Aug 27, 2019 23:19:26 GMT
A better answer John would be to admit that on a very visible part in the cab, a bronze reverser handle is quite wrong.
I am not too concerned about bits that are painted and what is underneath, so Silverfox's premise is specious. A gunmetal set of cylinders are identical to a cast iron set of cylinders if painted and covered in painted cleading.
Roger's steel parts in his cab are closer to fullsize than my stainless stuff, but I prefer not to worry about rusting. That is a personal preference. I like stainless regulator handles and valve handles etc. And they look the part. And they don't get so hot.
But a bronze regulator handle - well - there we are, plumbing the depths of incredulity!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by David on Aug 28, 2019 4:21:11 GMT
Looks excellent as usual Roger. Even my red loco didn't get a wet cab*, except when being steam cleaned during the blowdown after each run when it was very wet. The regulator handle hasn't rusted though and I'd bet it's only mild steel. YMMV - if mine didn't get wet I cannot imagine how yours would.
* It will for a while because I've taken the dreaded thread tape sealant out of the top feed and manifold bushes and there is now a small fountain of water/steam coming from them both. Makes it a bit hot around the valve handles...
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Post by terrier060 on Aug 28, 2019 12:19:20 GMT
As far as I can remember everything is stainless on my locos and to scale - including coupling and connecting rods and valve gear. I hope they don't buckle!! Some have said stainless looks different to BMS, but to my old eyes and after draw filing I can't tell; and who cares about what judges say! Mine have had good words said about them by you good folk on this forum and by fellows in my local club, and that says it all to me. Ed
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Post by Roger on Aug 28, 2019 13:04:13 GMT
As far as I can remember everything is stainless on my locos and to scale - including coupling and connecting rods and valve gear. I hope they don't buckle!! Some have said stainless looks different to BMS, but to my old eyes and after draw filing I can't tell; and who cares about what judges say! Mine have had good words said about them by you good folk on this forum and by fellows in my local club, and that says it all to me. Ed Hi Ed, I doubt very much is your Stainless Steel parts will buckle, they're almost certainly as strong as Mild Steel ones. I agree that draw filing makes it look very similar to BMS. In an as-machined or polished state it certainly does look different though.
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