Modern vs Traditional Model Engineering

[suctionhose]

As there has been a hot debate in the 2 Speedy related threads, I thought I'd launch a new thread so that Striplar can get on with his Speedy questions free of distractions (although he claims he doesn't mind!)

The written word is tricky to accurately articulate a controversial view so I hope to make a clean start and see what happens after that!

The debate was spurned by the use of 3D Modelling and CNC in model engineering and unfortunately bogged down in the legitimacy of new technologies for old games. Actually, that is not the issue for me at all.

I do recognize the capabilities of modern methods (and use them in many ways) while choosing to use more traditional techniques in my modelling. That is my choice because that is where my interests lie. Others are free to choose according to their own interests of course. There is no debate there! Takes all kinds and strength (of the movement at large) comes from diversity.

The emotional issue for me is not being replaced by technology (that already happened!) but about erosion of the core values of Model Engineering; The Hobby.

Now before we start beating each other up about rivet counters and old farts and progress etc etc let me recognize the fact that Model Engineering has the broadest possible scope. Not just trains, not just GWR vs LMS but V8 engines, Gas Turbines, Cars, Machine Tools, Guns, Bulldozers, Submarines, Planes, you name it... well, look up Joe Martin's Craftsmanship Museum you'll see what I mean.

So choice of models, field of interests, methods of production all being without reproach, what is the essence of Model Engineering?

Answer: People. 4930Hagley said it and he is 100% on the money!

Coincidentally, another thread called "5"g sugar cane" shows a short video of my first locomotive. Not the first thing I made. There were a number of stationaries, false starts and rebuilds that went before it but that was my first loco; my valve gear design, my boiler design, my best effort. It admirably fulfilled it's purpose and I was very proud of it at the time. I was 22 years of age.

I made a pilgrimage the following year from Sydney to the Isle of Wight to meet Don Young and show him a picture and tell him I had followed his advice - piston valves with no rings and 30 thou lead!

30 years on, it's still a desirable loco, subject to taste of course, fairly basic but quite presentable. As I watch the video and cast my mind back, I would do just about everything differently now! Everything. Including DY's advice. And I do...

You see, the essence of Model Engineering is personal development. The lure is raising the bar each time. Challenging yourself. Extending yourself. Trying new things and failing a few times before succeeding. Going an extra mile. You don't ski the mountain riding the chairlift. You learn the mountain by pushing yourself to the limit of your ability (at whatever level that is)

So what has this got to do with modern techniques? Well some of you are going to load Solidworks and say "Yeah! That's what I'm doing!" And I agree, you are!

The issue for me is that technology allows information to be shared so freely (that's what IT is: Information Technology right?) that a very fine model can be made from parts without the associated personal journey that I, and others, experienced.

In other words, a person can obtain a DXF or DWG file, email it, make a phone call or two and be in possession of the component they want. Say buy a boiler (many do in UK), say laser frames etc, say CNC punch / fold cab and tender, say wire cut expansion links, buy the fittings and some lost wax details and so on - you could have a better model than my best effort without leaving your house!

Now this streamlined approach is easily justified in these "got no time anymore" days but where is the personal development for the creator of that model? Is there any?

Many intelligent people have looked at my engines and felt not the slightest glow in their hearts! They have no means to appreciate what they see in front of them (poor souls). Those that do, male or female, train head or not - you sense it immediately - are elevated by the spirit of the whole creative process; the pain, the sacrifice, the whole 9 yards!

So here is my proposition:
A model is an insight to the soul of its creator.
A model should be valued by the commitment and dedication invested in it by its creator.

Did he make those Links, or just email a DXF or just use someone else's DXF?

Your thoughts are anticipated with enthusiasm!

[Deleted]

OK, I'll start off with just a short one for now....A chap I used to work with was VERY keen on all forms of Rallycross, especially the Welsh which he used to marshal at......On the following Monday dinnertime out would come 100 or more photos of all the various stars of the sport (eg}---Freddie Funden, the "Flying Fin" and his navigator Bengt Axle, )....along with which came the proud statement " I took those !!!"...........Eventually I was invited to go with him as they were short of volunteers and I got to see young Rodger taking "his" photos...........In the days before digital his was a top of the range 35mm Pentax with full automatic and motorised drive....and you can guess just which settings he used, can't you ??...Yep, FULL AUTOMATIC ? (selected)......MOTORISED DRIVE ?(selected)........Point camera at passing car and}----------------------clik/whir, clik/whir, clik/whir, clik/whir, clik/whir, RESULT ?? = technically perfect photos but no "input" from the operator....resulting in bland photos that virtually look the same..............So just what is it that makes us Humans different then ??.........CREATIVITY, that's what.......As we increasingly "Automate" our world then the need to pass on not just the skills but the accompanying enquiring mind-set that goes with it becomes vital as well..........Change for changes sake ?? I don't think so...Any change in my Engineering world has to be proven and justified on a time and/or cost basis or it doesn't get used........I WON'T use loctite on my wheel-to-axle fitting just because it's the "Modern way" , or "everyone else does it" or I'm being labelled as a Luddite....However, if you CAN prove ( beyond reasonable doubt)that it IS a better way for me then I'll snatch your hand off to get at that little red bottle...........................................................................

[pault]

A couple of things, today’s modern methods are tomorrow’s traditional methods.
CNC in almost all forms is not new, it was being taught and used in industry when I was an apprentice 30 years ago, it’s just got better and more affordable.
I get a kick out of programming and setting up a CNC machine to machine a complicated part and then watching it produce the item
I get a kick out of picking up files scrapers etc and producing something with a fine finish that would be very difficult to machine.
I get a kick out of fitting together parts to produce something that works
I get a kick out of being challenged technically and coming up with a good answer (note I said good, very often there is no “right.” Answer)
I enjoy taking something worn out and bringing it back to an as new condition.
I enjoy learning, I learn something new most days, even if it’s how not to do something. I could have decided that once I left school I had learned enough but life would have been very boring, and uninteresting. Likewise I enjoy passing on what knowledge I have, hopefully it has benefited some, which means that me learning it was even more worthwhile.
I guess you could call me selfish because I am not doing this for anyone else’s fun or to impress them. I’m doing it all for my own fun. That’s why I have been involved in engineering both as a hobby and a job for 32 years. I get a kick from it. What methods I use to get my kicks is up to me, as I have said there is no right or wrong way to produce parts.
Hagley, why wait for others to prove the value of something new to you, use your skills and imagination to show others how good it can be. That mindset is prone to stagnating, go out and look at the new technologies and think how can I use that to my benefit.

[Deleted]

I build locos etc. for my own pleasure and satisfaction and I'm not really bothered what other people think of them. I do use modern techniques wherever possible and make extensive use of 3D CAD. I use modern assembly methods (Loctite etc.) and modern materials such as plastics etc. I don't need to prove that I can hack a set of frames out of a piece of plate, drill all the holes in the right place etc. because I know that I can. I've done it several times already! Having said that, I haven't made use of laser,waterjet, or CNC purely because at the moment I can't afford the extra cost involved. When I can afford it, I will use it.

I was 60 last Sunday and time is getting short. I've got a shed full of unfinished projects and I'd like to get as many as possible completed before I snuff it! I don't want to spend the next ten years working on just one thing so shortcuts to getting things done are a godsend. I also do a lot of work for other people so that takes up time for my own stuff.

I have no problems with anyone using whatever techniques they want to, whether they be modern or traditional. Each to his own. I certainly don't look down on those who do use modern techniques as a lot of people seem to. I don't look down on those who build from kits either. I am sure they get just as much pleasure doing what they do and at the end of the day for me that's what it's all about. Pleasing oneself, not other people.

John

[GWR 101]

Hmm good idea this but might be a very big can of worms ! I believe that it should be Modern AND Traditional as we should adopt the best / most suitable of all approaches. I consider my self fortunate to be old enough to remember the old methods, when I first started in Engineering we had belt driven machinery using flat belts from counter shafts in the roof, the workshop was heated by coke stoves (like those seen in western movies). The lathes didn't have gear boxes and screw cutting was by working out the change wheels, calculations undertaken with chalk on your tool cupboard door. Slide rules and log tables were the office staff's tools. Well the machinists could turn out some fantastic work " free hand" shapes for metal spinning chucks using metal templates as guides. I remember the reaction when we had a lathe with a Taper turning attachment and a spherical turning attachment!. However the advantages were soon realised and accepted, as was the later introduction of numerous objects now in every day use such as electronic calculators. I feel privileged that I have the skill to be able to file something flat, but also can use a miller, shaper or surface grinder to get a flat surface. Lets see the methods as complementary and not in competition. Thanks for reading this Old Mans heart felt rant. Paul

[Deleted]

Thanks PAUL T---------- duly noted.

[Deleted]

An interesting thread for which I suspect you'll get varying answers... for me I see no problem in using modern techniques, as Paul states today's modern will be tomorrows traditional but they need to be used thoughtfully. I use them myself in as far as having sheet metal laser cut for me, whether it is using someone else's .dxf file or a drawing of my own when I'm not happy with what's available, I've used both.
I do see a use for CNC and 3D printing in what ever form it may take although for me there are some things that I don't like. I don't like CNC machined parts that should have a cast appearance...they just look all wrong to me... I remember the first time I saw a Modelwork's A4's tender with it's CNC machined horns, ok that may be an extreme example as the horns in question have been machined with as little changes in cut as possible.. such as no webs just holes drilled for holding horns in place whilst also acting as some sort of web lookalike.
But then we have the other end of the scale, I refer here to Mike's (44767) build of a BR Standard class 3MT locomotive where he has used a 3D model CAD, lost wax castings and laser cut parts to make his smokebox saddle also incorporating the blastpipe. I am very impressed with this and for me this is where using modern techniques has worked very well. Modern practises have been used yet keeping a prototypical look which for me personally is paramount, but then I love realism as you guys are well aware...

Regards

Pete

[Deleted]

Hello all----------- couldn't remember where I'd posted this but have found it now....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday at 12:41pm
Quote Edit like Post Options
Post by 4930Hagley on yesterday at 12:41pm
Hello all--------- at age 65 I'm "young" enough to have ridden on a "Trolley Bus" on a regular basis.....and used leather sash belts to open / close a "Droplight"in a Hawksworth carriage actually in Brit.Railways revenue-earning service, or watched from the open rooftop viewing platform at Heathrow as a BOAC Bristol Britannia takes off for "somewhere in the Dominion"........I'm also "OLD" enough to know that as an Ex.Indentured Mech. Engineering Apprentice (No, no--- that's nothing to do with being a Dentist !!)-- a good craftsperson keeps up to speed with what "tools", materials, equipment, legislation etc. are impacting them at any one time.....He/She then applies the tooling etc. appropriate to the overall situation that they are in...eg}---- I wouldn't choose a totally hand-crafted item if I'm running a full, or semi- mass production system ( unless that's what the customer requires/pays for !!.....) as there's no profit in it............Similarly as a hobbyist from a non-engineering background, OR a young Engineer taught solely CAD/CAM as a starting point, then I might find doing it the old-fashioned way has an attraction......( Pauses for the "tittering" to die down !!).......... Personally, because I have a very heavy (self-imposed) workload I make as much use of modern technology as I can do / or afford BUT, balance that by using my hand FITTING skills/knowledge to get the final item to function at it's best......Alas, you're right about the Human Nature side of things----- but then surely that's what this Hobby is ultimately concerned with--PEOPLE..And there are as many ways to become a "MODEL" Engineer as there are stars in the night sky (Apart from LODE STAR which apparently is still at Swindon--- NOT York !! Sorry again, Mr. Parrot !)...........Time for me to stop "gobbing-off" and get something---ANYTHING--- produced for to-day....Ride Safe, guys !!!------- EDIT}----plus also get my running gear tolerances as best as I'm able, balanced against the perceived requirements of the situation...........There, back on thread again. Well done!! (and so I should be LoL !! )---



Read more: modeleng.proboards.com/thread/8754/running-gear-tolerances?page=3&scrollTo=88499#ixzz2mQHmchg6...........................................Does that help any

[sncf141r]

I use CAD, CNC machining, but I make my own fittings and hex-headed screws (bolts).

I like making everything - or as close as I can get to it.

I no longer have a "vertical slide". I'll use Loctite. My lathes are no longer foot powered.

I'd rather see people making *anything* with whatever tools and ingenuity they can find.

I use the Internet to find pictures of my current locomotive - far faster than flying across the Atlantic, although both Internet and Airbus are "tools" for my model engineering.


Today is "fixing" the Martin Evans' 3-1/2" gauge cab drawing by re-drawing with CAD and a bitmap image to match it to.

Another JohnS. - cnc-for-model-engineers.blogspot.com

[jma1009]

i am not sure that Ross's thread is going to be particularly constructive.

i feel sorry for the youngsters who might pick up copies of ME or EIM and think that on the basis of current articles you need an all singing all dancing expensively kitted out workshop to make anything in miniature. this was the genius of LBSC - he brought miniature loco building to 'the masses'.

building something in miniature in a small home workshop is inherently 'anti-social' being a way of passing time in very much a 'solo' way. some find this very therapeutic away from the pressures of modern life. i would much rather spend my spare time in the workshop than say on a golf course!

some spend years building something which turns out to be a heap of rubbish, some build stuff which is quite extraordinary and wonderful. none of this ultimately depends IMHO on what equipment you have.

i always remember listening to the late tom bartlett and bill carter both of the SMEE arguing about something tom had made in his lathe that didnt come out quite right - tom had used a revolving centre and collets, and bill was firmly of the opinion that the only correct method was using dead centres!

i think that the capital investment in a home workshop has to be justified against other demands on one's own pocket. this i think is where some kind of dividing line needs to be drawn between the 'amateur', as opposed to the fulltime engineer with a fully equipped engineering workshop used as a business to produce an income who also makes miniature stuff as a hobby.

again it reminds me of a friend who had his own engineering business who was building a stuart triple expansion engine. it was perfect - the crank was done on an industrial grinder as were all the rods and much else besides. to make the 'squares' in the handles of the steam stop valves, a spark erosion machine was built - the cost incorporated in the business accounts to offset profit. i thought to myself at the time i could have made those 'squares' in a few minutes with some swiss files! i dont think there was any filing or handwork on that stuart triple expansion machine at all!

cheers,
julian

[sncf141r]

Dec 3, 2013 15:04:47 GMT jma1009 said:

i am not sure that Ross's thread is going to be particularly constructive.

i feel sorry for the youngsters who might pick up copies of ME or EIM and think that on the basis of current articles you need an all singing all dancing expensively kitted out workshop to make anything in miniature. this was the genius of LBSC - he brought miniature loco building to 'the masses'.

Hi Julian (I think you'd be a great person to share a "pint" or a "cuppa" with sometime!)

Regarding LBSC - we'll all note that Model Engineer is reprinting older articles, without updating to modern methods, like CNC.

We all have our own pet peeves, but in the end, it's the process of creation that is all important, whether CNC, or sand cast, agreed??

Another JohnS, stuck not only on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but also currently stuck creating cardboard mockups for his "Ivatt" Cab.

cnc-for-model-engineers.blogspot.com

[andyhigham]

As I alluded to on another thread, I take a common sense approach. I use the most suitable tool for the job. If I wanted 32 spokes for the rear wheels of a traction engine, I would draw the spoke out using Autocad or similar, then send the drawing to get them laser/CNC/waterjet cut for a few pounds, rather than many hours sawing and filing
If I wanted to clean a bit of flash off a casting I would get a file out.
I believe there is a case for drawings to be reproduced in CAD. Then when we buy a drawing, it could be sent to us via email. We could then print off the sheet we are working from and if it gets soaked in coolant etc we can just print off another

[alanstepney]

I think that NEW drawings should be in CAD, but to update the old ones would be a monumental task, and probably not economic.

As for machinery etc, and hand versus whatever, I prefer to do things the "old fashioned" way.
But, had I the ability to work with CAD-CAM, and the machinery to do so, I probably would.
If my bank balance allowed me to buy parts, perhaps laser cut, then I might be tempted.

As it is, I enjoy making things with the small amount of equipment I have, and as I do this hobby for pleasure, I will keep doing things in the same old ways.

[bhk]

Regardless of how a model is made, be it using modern techniques or traditional method the end result is the same....a great personal achievement.....us model engineers are a very skilled set of people and regardless of what you do and how you get there your still doing more than joe blog public could ever comprehend.

I actually could not care less if someone uses laser cutting instead of hacking things out by hand, I value the little time I get to spend on my engine and would rather spend the cash and have the frames laser cut next day rather slogging my guts out for a week!

Does this make me a better or worse engineer? Personally I think it makes me neither, it makes me an engineer using the tools available too him.

If the great chief engineers of the day be it LNER, GWR, LMS or whatever tickles your fancy, were still around they would be using the modern techniques and that is a fact.

Cheers
Sean

[jma1009]

hi sean, if you were judging an exhibition it would make a hell of a difference!
cheers.
julian

[dinmoremanor]

What's the issue? I would only see an issue if someone made extensive use of CNC, laser cutting and the like and then went around telling everybody that they had actually done it all themselves. In the case of building a loco, there may be plenty of bits you could have laser cut or CNC machined but there will still be a hell of a lot of work involved to end up with a running engine at the end of it... Each to their own and all that...

[jma1009]

there is an enormous amount of very detailed work in your IW O2! you ought to be given considerable credit for that over and above someone who buys a laser cut set of frames for a SIMPLEX, and partly made tanks and cab that only require slotting together! i know how difficult the FISHBOURNE drawings are, and you ought to take considerable pride in the your completed loco. i know that some of don young's later sheets werent exactly perfect! neither was his chimney drawing!
cheers,
julian

[dinmoremanor]

Julian, thank you for your comment, I can't claim all the credit for the O2, I bought it as a part built loco, however, the point I made above still stands, I don't go round telling everyone 'I have built all of it' when it isn't true and the same should go for those who make extensive use of CNC/Laser etc. etc. As long as people are open I don't see the issue in constructing models by whatever means are available/suits them at the time. Room for all in this great hobby of ours, certainly wouldn't like to think any younger folk are put off by threads like these if they feel inferior for not doing everything the 'hard way'.

[ettingtonliam]

Dec 3, 2013 21:16:05 GMT jma1009 said:

hi sean, if you were judging an exhibition it would make a hell of a difference!
cheers.
julian

I've only ever exhibited twice in 40 years, so am no expert, but when entering say, a loco, is it necessary to 'fess up what methods you have used, such as CNC, laser cut, treadle lathe, etc etc? If so, do the judges take it into account, and so presumably, with 2 exhibits of the same standard the one built by the most primitive methods wins?

Richard

[suctionhose]

We are getting bogged down in caveman vs spaceman.
Your drawing, your programing, your CNC'ing YOU MADE IT.
Someone else's drawing, program, CNC'ing - YOU DIDN'T!

Each are legitimate achievements. They are not the same achievements.