miken
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 480
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Post by miken on Apr 16, 2014 7:20:18 GMT
Look at the marks just behind the front on the outside, what's going on there? Also, good luck with adding stays to that and making them steam tight. . Roger, When you tig weld stainless steel, unless you purge the rear side of the weld with an inert gas, usually argon, as the weld penetrates through it comes out the other side as a horrible black, hard, mess sometimes refered to by welders as "coke" or "coking". It looks like lumpy carbon. What you are refering to on the outside of the boiler barrel in the front tube plate area looks just like coke that has been ground out. The weld is on the inside of the barrel and has penetrated through to the outside. You can plainly see blobs of weld that have been applied in an attemt to fill and disguise the very heavy pitting it causes. Where coking occurs it not only looks terrible but also effectively reduces the thickness of the metal in that area considerably. It would be totaly unaceptable in any sort of pressure vessel. Or anything you wish to sell for that matter. Its a sign of carelessnes and or lack of skill. Similarly, when welding the external seams of the boiler shell the inside would have to be filled with argon to ensure clean full penetration welds. I wonder if it was? Mike
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Post by Roger on Apr 16, 2014 7:23:50 GMT
Look at the marks just behind the front on the outside, what's going on there? Also, good luck with adding stays to that and making them steam tight. . Roger, When you tig weld stainless steel, unless you purge the rear side of the weld with an inert gas, usually argon, as the weld penetrates through it comes out the other side as a horrible black, hard, mess sometimes refered to by welders as "coke" or "coking". It looks like lumpy carbon. What you are refering to on the outside of the boiler barrel in the front tube plate area looks just like coke that has been ground out. The weld is on the inside of the barrel and has penetrated through to the outside. You can plainly see blobs of weld that have been applied in an attemt to fill and disguise the very heavy pitting it causes. Where coking occurs it not only looks terrible but also effectively reduces the thickness of the metal in that area considerably. It would be totaly unaceptable in any sort of pressure vessel. Or anything you wish to sell for that matter. Its a sign of carelessnes and or lack of skill. Similarly, when welding the external seams of the boiler shell the inside would have to be filled with argon to ensure clean full penetration welds. I wonder if it was? Mike Thanks for that Mike, it just goes to show how much trouble someone can get into trying to avoid the difficulties in building from conventional materials. I wouldn't have a clue where to start, and I'm guessing he didn't either.
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davet
Seasoned Member
Posts: 139
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Post by davet on Apr 18, 2014 20:20:25 GMT
Sold to the highest bidder for 79 pounds, quite an expensive doorstop or bookend.
24 bidders on the boiler, don't think I would have paid 79p for the thing.
DaveT Kuala Lumpur
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Post by andrewsleigh on Apr 18, 2014 20:39:42 GMT
know the guy whos bought it. had to show him this thread
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 22:25:36 GMT
know the guy whos bought it. had to show him this thread -------------- you're a brave lad and no mistake ! ( How's he reacted to this thread? or, better still, get him to join in with us "happy band of Brothers).
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Apr 18, 2014 23:18:58 GMT
For all our pontificating has anybody here actually had experience with Stainless Steel boilers?
I had a lot to say about SS and its treachery when misunderstood and misapplied but for all that do WE actually know what happens for a model's boiler?
We need to remember 2-4 years (you put the figure in relevant to you jurisdiction) the number of steam hours between tests is ludicrously small when compared to larger vessels operating in commercial/industrial service.
Maybe we should be thankful for Andrew's friend. Firstly because he has bought a test bed and secondly because he has stopped some other pour fool from buying it.
I would dare suggest that with appropriate water treatment with: High pH to buffer the water against corrosion. Minimum possible chlorides (No Zeolite softened water) Water with low TDS, suggest rain water not mains water An oxidiser (Chromate) rather that oxygen scavenger (Tannin) Blow down to dry after each run and for storage. Such a boiler might have a chance subject to regular monitoring and testing.
Hardly a fill and forget exercise as some SS promoters have tried to present
Thankfully boroscopes are available cheaply from Jaycar (and no doubt others) with a tiny head and a USB connection to allow you to see into your chamber of horrors.
Ian
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Post by andrewsleigh on Apr 18, 2014 23:23:07 GMT
i believe Ilvaporista built a SS boiler for the 7 1/4 tich i sold to him.
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Post by frz45 on Apr 19, 2014 0:37:25 GMT
Sadly, I am the one who bought this boiler....
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Apr 19, 2014 1:46:21 GMT
G'day, welcome aboard.
Before others get to you does "frz" stand for frazzled?
Ian
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Post by alanstepney on Apr 19, 2014 6:50:55 GMT
Having got the boiler, the question is, how best to make use of it?
I suggest a thorough inspection so that you know exactly what you have. Then, test it.
That will give you some information which might give you some ideas of how best to proceed.
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Post by ilvaporista on Apr 19, 2014 7:13:47 GMT
OK, I will give my views on SS boilers and experiences. In Italy, Germany, Switzerland and France I have seen many Stainless boilers operated over a many years without any issues, these are approved by the various organisations and have been certified and insured. Virtually all of the locomotives in the Naples club use Stainless boilers, these operate at least once per month but they are not intensively used as the club is more dedicated to enjoyment rather than intensive passenger hauling. These range from small 5" tank locos up to very large 7 1/4" narrow gauge locos. Just to give an idea of size this was the line up in 2012, there is a new larger loco but no film yet. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf3Iz5XsxqUThe boiler for the 7 1/4" Tich I bought from Andy was built by the same company that built all of the boilers used by the Naples club. I worked out a scheme together with the manufacturer and based on the experience of the Naples engines. The boiler is fully welded and root welds where possible were ground out from the other side. The boiler is Tig welded and the weld specs were similar to those I used to inspect on power stations. The boiler is mainly used at home and private tracks so it is subject only to my test regime (minimum annual hydraulic but usually proof tested before each event) and covered by a general insurance for fairground attractions, there are no specific policies related to hobby boilers in Italy. Although technically there are regulations regarding who can operate a boiler. The Naples locos do not have a specific water treatment but are fully emptied after each run and subject to regular wash outs. At home I use a mixture of condensate from the air conditioner, rain water or softened tap water. The Tich boiler took one day to make and cost around £300. One stay needed rewelding after the first proof test. In all of the years of using SS boilers I have only heard of one issue of a leaking stay after 3 years which seemed to have been caused by an inclusion in the weld, although a full NDT was not carried out. I do not take Tich to the UK but I have other locos with copper and steel boilers which although not currently on the UK boiler test scheme have been in the past. SS boilers seem to be OK for the rest of Europe and are widely accepted, however the overall number is much less than the UK due to the smaller following of Model Engineering on the continent. I would not propose to use SS in the UK but elsewhere they are widely accepted. I have no reservations about using SS on my own locos for home use.
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Post by ejparrott on Apr 19, 2014 8:16:43 GMT
I was about to comment along the same line as you Adrian but I won't bother typing it all out again. There used to be one boiler running at Swansea, don't know whatever happened to it but we never did the tests on it, I think they were commercial. It seems to be only the UK officials that refuse stainless boilers, other parts of the world don't seem so worried.
I will say though as someone who has experience of TIG welding stainless, the job must be done properly, as previously stated, and it's not something anyone can do, unlike building a copper boiler.
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Post by frz45 on Apr 19, 2014 10:42:18 GMT
FRZ is my named shortened down haha, my name is Frazer haha, and I really don't know what to fi with this thing, by the looks of things It doesn't even have firebox stays, what do I do about this? And advice on any of it would be very welcome!
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Post by Roger on Apr 19, 2014 12:31:27 GMT
FRZ is my named shortened down haha, my name is Frazer haha, and I really don't know what to fi with this thing, by the looks of things It doesn't even have firebox stays, what do I do about this? And advice on any of it would be very welcome! There seemed to be plenty of interest for it on ebay, so why not wait a while and re-list it?
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Post by yorkshireman on Apr 19, 2014 12:34:51 GMT
Hallo Frazer It might be a mistake to extrapolate the staybolt pattern from a copper-design to a steel or stainless boiler. Just do your own pressure test and carefully record some measurements (using a large caliper) between some carefull chosen points, e.g. between the sides at the firebox. Please report here - we might all be suprised. With regards to the other concerns voiced before: The Company EHRLE uses this Material (1.4571) in their Stainless Steel Boilers Sorry the languge of Goethe and Schiller... www.gartenbahn-ehrle.de/html/kesselbeschreibungen.htmlwww.gartenbahn-ehrle.de/dampfdatenblatt.pdf1.4571 (X6CrNiMoTi17-12-2), AISI 316Ti, (V4A) ... Grade 316 and their process comforms with European Guideline for Pressurevessels 97/23/EG Quote from: www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Stainless-Steel_1.4571-316Ti_40.ashx"Corrosion Resistance of 1.4571 Grade 316 has excellent corrosion resistance when exposed to a range of corrosive environments and media. It is usually regarded as “marine grade” stainless steel but is not resistant to warm sea water. Warm chloride environments can cause pitting and crevice corrosion. Grade 316 is also subject to stress corrosion cracking above around 60°C. ..." However, 1.4571 is widely used in Coastal and Marine applications. The material is used in boats sailing the 'Salty Seas' ... Quote from: hempel-metals.com/en/Alloy-316Ti.htm"Description of 1.4571 The increased resistance to corrosion and pitting predestined these steels for use in the chemical industry, nuclear power, vacuum technology, reactor instrumentation, submarine construction, furnace construction, Transsulfit, sulfite pulp, textile, color, fatty acid, photo chemical and pharmaceutical industries. This material is becoming increasingly used in exhaust technology..." Please note that the concentration of Chloride Ions in Sea Water is about 35.000 ppm (parts per million). The mean Chloride concentration in Rivers in the UK in the range 11–42 mg/litre. (or ppm) Concentrations of Chloride in UK Freshwater between 1 and 100 ppm are considered normal, three orders of magnitude less than Sea Water. Now please put your thinking cap on and contemplate how large the risk of a professionally made Stainless Steel Boiler with respect to Chloride Pitting really is... The quality of the seams is another matter. But still there is scaremongering going on. We have yet to see a truely catastrophic failure of a model boiler of your size. Yes, all boilers may fail, but then the event was not in any way more serious than a broken sight glass, when a driver was sprayed with boiling water/steam. Relax... Johannes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 15:25:05 GMT
Hello FRZ, welcome and here's 100 "Man-up" points awarded to you for being brave enough to join in.... OK, that's the niceties done with...What's intriguing me is just why you bought it in the first place ??--------- Do you have a loco or project for this in mind ??.........As you can see from the other postings running an SS Boiler isn't as straightforward as first might appear when compared to its' copper equivalent.......Could you post your own photos of it for us to see just what does need doing ??.......Finally, do stay with us in any event as we are more than just the sum of our parts, so the more the better..........OK ??
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 15:41:58 GMT
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Post by yorkshireman on Apr 19, 2014 16:24:05 GMT
Sorry Hagley, I fail to understand how the loss of the Kursk could have anything to do with Stainless Steel, except that her outer hull was made from Stainless. According to the reference you quote, the Kursk was sunk by one of her own torpedos, when the hydrogen peroxide used as one of the torpedos propellants exploded during test-firing, plus consequential events. Johannes
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Post by frz45 on Apr 19, 2014 16:50:05 GMT
I bought it as I am getting back into steam and was planning to build something once i got it and build the project around, as for the maintenance I guess tats just going to be part of ownership I guess, bought myself a lovely hand made brass vertical gas fired, saw this one without really thinking about stainless steel, then when I brought it up to Andy the truth of it kicked in and when I read this forum i was horrified, saw that someone suggested that I join so I did because well, to be quite honest, i need all the help I can get! Ill take all the pics I can that you guys want to see, ill do a hydraulic pressure test and measure the firebox walls with a micrometer or whatever every so many psi, and record that and update you guys with what I find.
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Post by alanstepney on Apr 19, 2014 16:56:47 GMT
I suggest that you consider the problem in two stages.
Firstly, what is the condition of the boiler and what can be done with it.
Secondly, how one can get over the legal / insurance issue.
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