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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 19, 2014 14:34:00 GMT
I'm getting round to doing the cladding/cleading on this 3.5" Hall boiler and I'm wondering how to go about making something neat and paintable to cover the front shoulders of the firebox, I've tried brass and copper [both annealed] and the resultant mess would feed several dogs at dinnertime, any tips or ideas would be much appreciated, thanks. Ian  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 15:57:03 GMT
Hi Ian Boiler looks nice...  ... I think I'd stick with annealed copper... my way of doing it would probably be making a wooden former, hard wood best to beat the copper over, same way as making flange plates for a boiler. Pete |
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 19, 2014 16:33:01 GMT
Thanks Pete, I tried that over a hardwood former but the copper doesn't stay in shape so maybe it's too thin, just springs back.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 16:51:18 GMT
looking at your picture Ian I think I'd try doing it at the same gauge as the boiler wrap edge seen, I'd add a lip to the part that your forming so that it fits under the wrap, thus giving a flush joint. If you continue the lip along the whole rear edge, ie down the sides it would plug in and should hold it's shape. If the curved part refuses to play ball try adding a laminate of copper on the inside, sweating it inplace while holding the part so that it has the correct circumference. Hope that makes sense...you may find a better way altogether... I'm sure it will look great whichever method you choose... Pete |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 16:57:44 GMT
Hi Ian,
Could you make the shoulders out of solid brass, say 0.25" thick just cut to fit and the front edges rounded if necessary or would that mean extending the firebox cladding too far forward?
I've recently remade the throatplate cladding for the 3.5" Princess Royal by flanging it up from 20swg copper. The flanging was relatively easy but getting it all to fit properly was a nightmare! Give me roundtop fireboxes any day!
John
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 19, 2014 18:58:12 GMT
hi ian,
from experience of my own 3.5"g GWR KING boiler and cleading i would say the bit you are trying to make is the THE most difficult part of the whole loco! and because it so distinctive on GWR locos it is worth getting 'right'.
a proper former as described by alan is required, and if properly annealed the metal either brass or copper wont 'spring' as you have described. on my GWR KING the whole cleading is soft soldered together into one large assembly. it took longer to make than the boiler itself!
cheers,
julian
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Post by digger on Jul 19, 2014 19:34:41 GMT
Belpair shoulders are better made by beating annealed copper into a shaped former rather than beating it over a former. just keep it annealed so it's easy to work.
Digger
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 19, 2014 20:29:21 GMT
John,I had thought of the solid brass idea but as you say it would bring it too far forward.
Julian, I would agree with you that it would appear to be the most difficult part of the loco to make, at least to get it looking right and I've put it off for 5 years so far and gone on to other things that I can do, what temperature soft solder did you use for cleading your 'King'?
and Digger, I had considered something like your suggestion earlier today though a 'reverse' former would be more awkward to make in wood.
Thanks,
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 23:59:24 GMT
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 20, 2014 8:08:34 GMT
Thanks Alan, nice bit of brass work there.
Ian
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Post by digger on Jul 20, 2014 15:36:49 GMT
John,I had thought of the solid brass idea but as you say it would bring it too far forward. Julian, I would agree with you that it would appear to be the most difficult part of the loco to make, at least to get it looking right and I've put it off for 5 years so far and gone on to other things that I can do, what temperature soft solder did you use for cleading your 'King'? and Digger, I had considered something like your suggestion earlier today though a 'reverse' former would be more awkward to make in wood. Thanks, Ian Not really that dificult, two pieces of plywood carefully cut out with a jig saw, laid on top of each other, the radius of the belpair corner made with a fillet of hard setting body filler or Belzona molecular metal, the copper sheet used does not have to be very thick, just keep annealing it as work progresses. Digger |
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 20, 2014 18:56:02 GMT
Thanks for that explanation Digger, I had thought after your original suggestion of something similar so it's encouraging to read your ideas on it, I'm torn between that and what Alan [Hagley ] suggested via the link and then do the cladding round the firebox end and then build forward to go round the awkward bits, thanks to everyone so far and I'll keep you posted on progress or otherwise, though I've a couple of busy weeks ahead with my work [self employed gardener and dance band musician] part of me wants rain to get on with model engineering. We've had quite a lot of rain recently and that enabled me to get on with the Hawksworth tender and I'll post a pic of that as soon as.
Ian
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 20, 2014 19:16:01 GMT
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Post by dinmoremanor on Jul 20, 2014 21:47:28 GMT
I'm in possesion of a medal winning 5" Manor that has the corners moulded out of P38 or similar smoothed over with body filler, tough as old boots, been on there 25+ years and steamed for many hundreds of hours. The same builder has built other engines using the same method, again with no issues. Could be worth a go....
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 20, 2014 22:36:53 GMT
hi ian,
your hawksworth tender is very impressive and you have made a beautiful job of the paintwork and lining.
cheers,
julian
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 21, 2014 5:24:34 GMT
Thanks Julian, I have lamp brackets made to fit above the buffer beam and various other details to add, like a lot of designs detailing is non-existent on the plans.
The P38 or similar had crossed my mind as well Dinmoremanor but I'd worry about expansion and contraction though if it's been on your loco for all those years it's obviously fit for purpose.
Cheers,
Ian
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 21, 2014 8:48:02 GMT
i have also used P38 many years ago to make a LBSCR Billinton safety valve cover. it wont crack but i would still add it to a suitable piece of formed cleading for the front of the belpaire firebox. you might notice it going a slightly different shade of green. one of the problems with your boiler is the sharp (ie not rounded) tops to the front of the belpaire wrapper - perhaps round off the front edge of the wrapper with a file? it wont affect the integrity of the joints and the boiler looks to be extremely well made.
cheers,
julian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 9:07:47 GMT
Hi Ian--------- Lovely job done on that Hawksworth tender...( and no compound curves at the rear end to do either..)...Now may I be a bit "picky" ??...........You've correctly painted the Buffer Beam in red BUT.......the ones between the loco and tender are DRAGBEAMS and are black.....I believe the buffer-beams being red was a hang-over from the "man-with-a-red-flag" walking in front days..........but there again that could just be urban myth ??
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Post by drumkilbo on Jul 21, 2014 9:41:40 GMT
Some good points again Julian, thanks. The boiler is extremely well made by Helen at Western steam about 5 years ago!
and Alan, that's just undercoat you're seeing on the loco drag beam and it will be black! The grey undercoat elsewhere is etch primer on brass but I tend to use red primer on steel. Thanks for the tip about 'Tinypics' btw, I've been trying to upload photos several times over the last year and finally succumbed to your many hints about tinypics so I registered and found it helluva easy
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 15:43:21 GMT
Some good points again Julian, thanks. The boiler is extremely well made by Helen at Western steam about 5 years ago! and Alan, that's just undercoat you're seeing on the loco drag beam and it will be black! The grey undercoat elsewhere is etch primer on brass but I tend to use red primer on steel. Thanks for the tip about 'Tinypics' btw, I've been trying to upload photos several times over the last year and finally succumbed to your many hints about tinypics so I registered and found it helluva easy Ian ------------------------ isn't it so !!.........just wish the others would take the hint as well...Ah, red primer...that's ok then..I have seen several running model locos with red drag beams which does look "odd"........If like myself, BEN, Pault and others on here, you've been involved in splitting and/or re-joining a loco and tender the one thing you do notice is the distinct lack of red paint on those beams and rubbing pads....( Coal black and grimy grease seems to be the "Colour-of-Choice".....LoL !! |
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... I think I'd stick with annealed copper... my way of doing it would probably be making a wooden former, hard wood best to beat the copper over, same way as making flange plates for a boiler.
