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Post by joanlluch on Mar 1, 2015 12:22:55 GMT
As I stated elsewhere I am more interested on the "engineering" aspect of building a locomotive than on the "model" side of it. Hence my particular willingness to design all parts from scratch and build a locomotive that is not particularly inspired on any existing design, rather than just pick one of the existing designs and replicate what's on it.
So a thread discussing all the "engineering" aspects of existing locomotive designs as well as known and possible untested innovations would be of great interest to me. Since new full scale steam locomotives are unlikely to be build following too innovative concepts, any new ideas should be applicable to newly designed small scale engines. That's in part the goal of my locomotive built, and once I get enough experience on it, I may design a much simpler locomotive just to test some principles on it.
There are two particular subjects that interest me which are somehow contradictory:
One is thermal efficiency (within the obvious constraints of the technology). This implies building a locomotive that adds all what is required to improve on it, such as full isolation, design for low cut off operation, compound cylinders, steam condensing and more.
Second is how to design a simple small steam locomotive that could be build by anybody with ease, with the sole purpose of participating on live steam events. For instance, one with a fixed forward gear, minimal amount of parts and no special tooling required to make or assemble the parts.
Although I do not count on this to be a particularly extensive thread, those above are subjects that interest me and I hope some enlightening posts will follow this, based on achievements, experiences, or just theoretical knowledge that some of you may have.
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peteh
Statesman
Still making mistakes!
Posts: 760
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Post by peteh on Mar 1, 2015 13:21:17 GMT
If you want simple and minimum parts a look at the 2.5 Gauge Toby would be a good start. Using slip eccentrics gives reverse and forward fixed gear.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 1, 2015 14:41:44 GMT
A lot of work on bringing the steam engine into the 21st century was carried out by Livio Dante Porta. He designed gas generator fire beds for locomotives, improved steam flow and exhaust systems.
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 1, 2015 16:17:27 GMT
21st century motive power...hmm...diesel electric or just plain electric - efficiency way in excess of what steam can ever provide.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 17:36:33 GMT
21st century motive power...hmm...diesel electric or just plain electric - efficiency way in excess of what steam can ever provide. -------- The Swiss have the best set-up I would say ie}--- Electric traction from Hydro-Generation... But then that's no "fun" is it ??-------or "in-thread" as it were... The "How" part is easy..Basically steam is generated, then by expanding (and use of mechanical device/s) work is done..and transmitted to the railhead.. OK, let's determine first just what Basic TYPE of engine do you have in mind, Joan ??...........ie}--- Reciprocating OR Rotary, then we can discuss that one further..
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Post by goldstar31 on Mar 1, 2015 17:51:02 GMT
[quote author="@4930hagley" source="/post/120597/thread" timestamp="1425231393[/quote]-------- The Swiss have the best set-up I would say ie}--- Electric traction from Hydro-Generation... But then that's no "fun" is it ??-------or "in-thread" as it were...
[/quote]
Sorry Alan but the French have all the fun. They get their water from the Italian side and when it comes to atomic power,they site their power stations on their borders. Obviously if the wheel comes off the wagon, the other countries get a pasting from the fall out.
Vive la France, mon vieux!
Norman
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 1, 2015 17:53:35 GMT
21st century motive power...hmm...diesel electric or just plain electric - efficiency way in excess of what steam can ever provide. Hi Ed, come on. This is not the point. Of course I can make a locomotive powered by an electric linear motor laid on the track which in turn is feed by model wind turbines at one edge of the club. But it happens that my interest is in OLD steam locomotive technology.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 1, 2015 18:01:11 GMT
Most electricity is generated using steam power
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 18:01:42 GMT
[quote author="@4930hagley" source="/post/120597/thread" timestamp="1425231393 -------- The Swiss have the best set-up I would say ie}--- Electric traction from Hydro-Generation... But then that's no "fun" is it ??-------or "in-thread" as it were... [/quote] Sorry Alan but the French have all the fun. They get their water from the Italian side and when it comes to atomic power,they site their power stations on their borders. Obviously if the wheel comes off the wagon, the other countries get a pasting from the fall out. Vive la France, mon vieux! Norman[/quote] --and to think we jointly developed Concord(e) in pre-digital days with them ---- Oh well, back to clunky, old steam recips. then .... Joan, as this is your thread where shall we make our start ??----- I'd say at the beginning and steam GENERATION methods. Over to you--------
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 1, 2015 18:14:34 GMT
21st century motive power...hmm...diesel electric or just plain electric - efficiency way in excess of what steam can ever provide. -------- The Swiss have the best set-up I would say ie}--- Electric traction from Hydro-Generation... But then that's no "fun" is it ??-------or "in-thread" as it were... The "How" part is easy..Basically steam is generated, then by expanding (and use of mechanical device/s) work is done..and transmitted to the railhead.. OK, let's determine first just what Basic TYPE of engine do you have in mind, Joan ??...........ie}--- Reciprocating OR Rotary, then we can discuss that one further.. Alan, I mean reciprocating, so not a steam turbine. But I do not necessarily relate this with efficiency. In this case I mean a basic locomotive from the point of view of making it. The "Toby" and the "Tick" are good examples of it. But I am convinced that even an easier to make loco should be possible. Both the Toby and the Tick still require soldering skills and tools that are beyond the abilities or possibilities of the average person. I am aware that I need to complete my current build -which is far more complicated and still following a lot of the stablished norm- to get the expertise to determine whether some of it can be really simplified as to make it really easy for everyone.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 1, 2015 18:21:18 GMT
Hi Alan,
" Joan, as this is your thread where shall we make our start ??----- I'd say at the beginning and steam GENERATION methods."
Yes, this would be a perfect start. As for example, which is the easier design of a boiler that could be used on a simple locomotive.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 1, 2015 18:57:06 GMT
One of the easiest boilers to construct is the "Sweet Pea" type www.duncraigworks.talktalk.net/swppages/swpboiler.htMany full size narrow gauge locos, notably Bagnall had this type of boiler. Due to the circular firebox the only stays are 7 longitudinal through the firebox and 2 longitudinal through the barrel
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 1, 2015 19:30:50 GMT
one of the simplest locos i saw working quite often was the late Gordon Howell's 'Andover logging mill' loco in 5"g that had oscillating cylinders. i am sure many forum members will remember Gordon and this particular loco with its bright light blue paintwork.
cheers, julian
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Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 1, 2015 22:19:18 GMT
Gordon Howell's 'Andover logging mill' loco in 5"g that had oscillating cylinders. /quote] We steamed it recently.....it still goes!
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Post by GeorgeRay on Mar 1, 2015 22:22:54 GMT
Gordon's loco Wapiti is in the care of ADMES and was given a. check over late last year with a view to getting it back into certificate. Like many of Gordon's models it. was an example of how simple things could be. Wapiti despite only being a very short wheel base was a true passenger hauler and was used on our portable track when we took it to local fete's. I'll try and find a picture to post. George Ray
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 2, 2015 0:47:43 GMT
This question of simplicity is the same I have asked my friends regarding steamboats.
Ok, there are steamboats in the sense of the SBA, Lake Windermere etc,and all those fine examples which for the average person are well out the league of reality in terms of cost and complexity. You almost cannot go near them since everything is so shiney and highly polished, certainly you do not touch!
I originally wanted a steam powered boat before I began in miniature locomotives but not one like the Royal Yacht Britannia! This is why I have opted for steam locomotives to quench my taste for steam. Pearing into the inner workings of LBSC Maisie I can certainly see the daunting dilemma a new comer contemplates with limited equipment and skills, and Maisie is an easy one in the scale of things. So much for Tich as a starters model. Eye test needed prior to that one.
I was some weeks ago going to ask about a published LBSC Xmas project called AJAX. It is not the AJAX/ACHILLIES elk but an open cabbed model along the lines of Tich which I think was spirit fired and had oscillating cyclinders. It was my though for it in 5", and has the style of a loco along Tich lines and quit easily (could) be constructed for steam and even in dear I say it...electric. Some of us sometimes just do not need a Black 5 or Britannia on wheels.
Maybe if a Toby like engine was more accessable then Dad and family or little Johnny could have a bit of fun at the track. I guess the thinking is along the lines of the Mamod Traction engine and their popularity. Apparently everyone has had or has one, maybe I need one too just for fun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 1:25:20 GMT
For a basic boiler design we first need to choose our FUEL as I'm assuming that "Normal" water is to be used ??..... However there might be an arguable case for the use of "Heavy Water" ?? ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water ) ie}--- More heat contained within the same volume ... but only if we ignore the cost of producing Deuterium Oxide in the first place !!( shame really)....
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 2, 2015 1:32:28 GMT
Whatever is easiest for fuel.
Hand pump+ Axel pump
Hand pump + Injector.
Maybe it could be a loco designed by a Committee?…………..well no.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 1:34:40 GMT
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 2, 2015 1:48:10 GMT
Is a 'MAMOD" themed loco just not a goer in the world of miniatures? Is it just to simplistic?
Guess the proper locos would no approve anyway.
Maybe a Railmotor without a cab aka "Quarry Hunslet" might be as simple as you can get also.
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