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Post by GWR 101 on Mar 13, 2015 11:20:57 GMT
That's a very valid point Peter I remember it being the case when clock cards were in use and "mates" were clocked in if not there on time ! I was just offering it as a modern alternative to keys with perhaps some bonus attributes. Regards Paul
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Post by ilvaporista on Mar 13, 2015 15:13:14 GMT
One trick that I saw that may be of use in limited cases is to make up a chain of links and padlocks. Each individual has a key which unlocks their padlock and so the chain can be released. I saw this used on a private road. Useful with multiple users where someone losing the key causes all others to have to change the key.
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Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 13, 2015 15:16:11 GMT
a key holder should be present with whoever else wants to attend If I have to arrange for some other "resposible" member of the club to come and open up for me, then hang around and "supervise" me until I want to go home, then the club will have to look for a new treasurer! Nor do I want to be at the beck and call of the other members should I be considered competent enough to look after the key. We are all adults (kids aren't allowed unsupervised) and we have to be responsible for our own actions. I am sufficiently sick of the "nanny state" that I don't wish to become part of it! |
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 13, 2015 19:08:07 GMT
Can you enlighten me exactly what the " insurance" aspect is relating to being at the club by oneself? My other hobbies I can do solo, flying, sailing. I owned a 30' launch for five years and had very few passangers and I survived storms and solitary confinement. I'm still here.
I often try to attend my club out of hours so that I can get on with doing what I want without distraction, be it a run or some sort of testing. There are times when we need solitary time to think and experiment. Might be something on the engine or other and one finds it best to have some thinking time without public peering over ones shoulder. Often it is a good to know that you are " inside " and they are "outside"the premies.
If I was to pull public passangers I see the need for two in attendance and we do have insurance requirements to satisfy, but I value my life and the cost if my engine and will take care if it regardless of whether I am their alone or with others. Infact there is potentially a greater chance of a misshap with the more people present at the club, kiddies, parential distractions etc, etc.
I agree to some degree with Julian that not all should have access but in a small club getting another member, especially a steam one, is difficult.
If I did not have free access I would not be doing this hobby, that is one certainty.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 13, 2015 19:37:15 GMT
I hate legislation intended to protect me from myself.
When I am at work I am usually by myself, when in my workshop at home I am only accompanied by Kizzy my staffie. I also do dangerous things like riding motorbikes and racing motorbikes.
I am also old enough to remember the days when sex was safer than motorbikes
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 13, 2015 20:47:08 GMT
i dont think its a question of the 'nanny state' or H & S gone mad.
there are clear security considerations with some clubs as in many clubs there are items of considerable value on the premises/in the clubhouse, whether they be original loco nameplates, equipment, machines, tools, club locos, library, competition cups etc.
many 'ordinary' members do not appreciate how much work is involved in opening up and locking up some club sites, and getting the track ready etc. each club is different in these respects, but by way of example i can think of at least 7 keys being required to access my own club's facilities plus know how to work the burglar alarm and know it's code.
the keys range from main doors to access gates, driveway bollards, the lifting ramp for unloading from a car, the 2 traversers, turntable, water standpoint covers, and steaming bay electricity covers.
i would not want to shift either of the traversers or turntable without an extra pair of hands being available to help, especially with a loco in steam on top.
there are other mundane tasks such as turning on the mains water, and the electrics, putting out the water standpipes and hoses, putting out the coal, and the passenger trolleys.
the track needs to be checked and inspected and various other things done that go unnoticed by many before anything can run on the track.
cheers,
julian
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Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 13, 2015 22:31:26 GMT
Julian, the points you mention are valid and apply to our club too.
I should clarify that I am not advocating that members should attend the club site on their own. Members are strongly advised not to be on site alone, and if they are, then they are strongly advised to inform someone of their whereabouts and that they expect to be home at a certain time etc.
However, the idea of an elitist few with keys who must be overseeing the rest of the members doesn't sit well with me. If two or more members, or a member with his family, wish to visit the club to run or repair track etc. I see no reason for them to have to wait until "sir" is available to hold their hand.
We keep little of value on our site, even so, there is a check list that has to be followed when locking up.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,875
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Post by Midland on Mar 13, 2015 22:57:31 GMT
Whilst I am happy to stimulate discussion in the broader sense, our problem is quite singular. We have one club house with one door that leads one to the general access system to the rest of the storage areas, again simply two containers locked up like Fort Knox.
The key issues have been discussed at length very usefully, thanks. Our objective is to get away from the “I have the key and that makes me very important” to “I am a member and I can enjoy my club”. The peripheral issues about one individual being stupid so he comes down and kills himself or leaving it all open and getting everything stolen are side issues to the fundamental principle that members should be responsible for their actions. All we want to do is give universal access and record who is stupid or irresponsible so that the wrong person does not be accused of the foregoing indiscretions. (One might note that a dead person cannot tell us if he was stupid!!)
So Sounding like Alan S (bless him) let me get back with our solution or lack thereof!
Cheers David
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 14, 2015 5:07:48 GMT
I appreciate that in this hobby there is a HUGE diversity of facilities and yes some are extremely complicated systems, and potentially dangerous and that is not even considering the potential of the steam boiler.
Having visited a few facilities and viewing what is seen on the internet over seas it is not possible to run with even a handful of volunteers. Whilst a big layout would be grand there are joys in simplicity like what we have at my club.
I believe that if you are responsible to look after and care for a steam locomotive you have the ability to run at your club and should have free access by way of holding a key.
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 14, 2015 6:52:59 GMT
It might be possible to arrange a rota so that the club is open, say, Tuesday, Thursday, Sat and Sun.
That would (should) cater for the needs of the majority, and just needs, say, half-a-dozen members to have keys. Preferably ones who live nearby.
In addition, perhaps the key-holders might be willing to pop along at other times if a member phones them in advance and request it.
Now, that wont solve all problems and it is adding some weight to the few who hold the keys, but it might be worth considering.
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 14, 2015 9:00:48 GMT
I think my club in New Zealand does not hold a match to your clubs in the UK.
There are only four of us true steamers at our small club and the chances of us all attending together is pretty slim. Thankfully I have a good friend from Chesterfield who I can pretty well rely on for moral support, and afternoon tea!
Our club has been hijacked by parties and even the model boaties do not come on weekends anymore.
See this is the problem and someone highlighted in it another post, those that work full time during the week only have the Saturday and Sunday to run and we do not get a fair deal out of our membership. If we could not go alone we would have very little running time at all.
What do you guys do on Tuesdays and Thursdays?? It must be bliss the have free run of the track while everyone else is working. Work or play?
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 14, 2015 19:41:03 GMT
hi hayden,
unfortunately not everyone owning a 'valuable' loco knows how to drive them properly or couple up properly or knows how to take care of themselves or their loco! youtube examples posted on here a few years ago were positively alarming and even the supposedly most 'expert' of people exhibit serious mistakes. i remember Don Young having a 'break away' when the loco became detached from the passenger/driving trolley on which he was located as driver with the loco shooting/steaming ahead on it's own. i also know of one very experienced driver driving a loco onto the traverser when it wasnt in position (it wasnt in place at all - just a large 6 foot gap in the track!)
this is why most UK track regulations/risk assessments require at least 2 people to be present when the track is used.
in my own club the reason why only a selected few have a set of keys is primarily one of cost of duplicating all the keys required. i am no longer a key holder, but that causes me no concern at all.
cheers,
julian
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 14, 2015 21:08:24 GMT
Julian.
Yes I understand the reasons and too I have seen a traverser left open, even seen a loco lose its sole driver! No passengers luckily.
Incidents will always happen to some degree. There is no perfect solution to any of it.
Hopefully my RailMotor doesn't throw me…the tough little thing it is. It always wanting to go.
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 15, 2015 8:58:20 GMT
If I wasn't a keyholder for the club, I wouldn't be there 80% of the time I currently am, almost certainly I'm there on my own.
If I was a keyholder and had to unlock for other folks to go, I wouldn't want to be a keyholder. I have enough trouble getting people to understand that they cannot phone me up the night before they want an hydraulic test on their boiler!
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 15, 2015 9:59:33 GMT
We now have 3 weekends allocated for boiler testing, no testing at other times. This enables our boiler inspector to have a life
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 15, 2015 10:04:19 GMT
Do you prefer to be their by yourself or with a few other like minded fellows.
As a member you should not have to be the curator. Ok boiler tests are a voluntary task that you elect yourself to do for the good of your club, not everyone can do that job but if you spend more time their for the pleasure of others then that is not right.
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Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 15, 2015 22:48:02 GMT
We now have 3 weekends allocated for boiler testing, no testing at other times. With apologies to the original poster for going off topic, I'm curious to know how this works. If a boiler is presented for testing and fails with, say, an injector that won't pick up, what happens then? Is the member told to fix the injector, and by the way you can't run for four months until it is tested again? How frustrating! I'm not being critical of your system, I'm just interested in understanding how it works.  |
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 16, 2015 9:20:38 GMT
Steam tests I don't mind if it's a phonecall the night before if I'm honest, provided of course I was going to be at the club anyway. It takes me 10 minutes to do it, and I can carry on with whatever else I was doing. Hydraulic requires me to make sure I've got all the test equipment with me when I go to the club, and takes much longer to do the job.
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Mar 16, 2015 10:28:07 GMT
We now have 3 weekends allocated for boiler testing, no testing at other times. This enables our boiler inspector to have a life I hope the key holder remembers to turn up! |
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Mar 20, 2015 20:14:32 GMT
If I had to get somebody to come and unlock at RMES for me to get in I would jack the membership as I only use the workshop and to do so on my own means no disturbances.
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