simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on Jun 21, 2007 19:19:45 GMT
Hi all,
As you may have realised from my avatar and my profile text at the bottom of my posts, some of you may have quessed I'm planning to build the Paget loco in true 1/8th scale.
I've been to York NRM and got some drawings and an index to the full set of drawings produced by J Clayton (Pagets draughtsman). These drawings should all be at York acording to the ex librarian Phil Atkins but through a club member I phoned JB Radford as the club member thought he could help me. Brian says he was involved with saving the drawings from Derby and sent them to Clapham. He says not all were saved, only main drawings so sundries will have been binned!
Anyway to my point. Brian wrote a book years ago called 'Derby Works and Midland Locomotives, the Story of the Works, Its Men, and the Locomotives They built.' He recomends I get this book as there is a section in it about the Paget loco. I thought I had all published info so he suprised me with this book. Does anyone have a copy to let me know just how much is actually in it about the Paget engine, I have been very disapointed with my past purchases which tell nothing new, one book I paid £20 for contained 4 pages most of which was basic knowledge!
Cheers for any help.
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Post by havoc on Jun 21, 2007 19:48:57 GMT
Are you really going to make it as an 8 cilinder uniflow engine rotary valve with a firebrick firebox?  If so then WOW is all I can say. Those valves don't look simple from the little I saw of it. But succes to that project. (sorry, no idea about the book) |
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on Jun 21, 2007 20:25:22 GMT
Yes, 8 cyls (2.310" x 1.540), uniflow, rotary admission valve (the full size one kept seizing up!), reversing gearbox (so simple its utterly amazing!) but I'm not sure about the firebricks yet. They'd be thin so probably not up to much strength wise so I might do an ordinary waterlegged box but still with the 2 fireholes.
Its the notching up liner controls I'm struggling to understand. I was hoping that drawings would be at York but Brian Radfords comments are downheartening, I'll find out in October when the research centre reopens.
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Post by asquith on Jun 21, 2007 20:57:06 GMT
Simon,
I have the book. There's not much on the Paget 2-6-2. No drawings, one photo (same as your avatar). I'll e-mail the relevant pages in the next day or two.
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Post by baggo on Jun 22, 2007 0:55:36 GMT
Hi Simon, and I thought I was a glutton for punishment  Up until now I knew nothing about this loco but have just done a bit of searching so at least I now know what it is. There's a couple of references in Model Engineer to the loco: In issue 2333 'For Your Bookshelf' reference is made to The "Paget" Locomotive by James Clayton. Apparently this was a 12 page brochure containing a reprint from 'The Railway Gazette' which is said to give a complete description of the loco with some drawings. Also there was an article by Kenneth H Leech published in 'The Journal of the Stevenson Locomotive Society' in early 1945 which gave further details. In issue 2892 there is a short article by E F Carter on the loco with a brief description of the workings of the valve gear. It sounds as though the outer sleeve had ports cut in it to admit steam to the cylinders. Rotating the sleeve by means of the geared drive altered the position of the ports relative to the valve and hence changed the cut-off point. If you think the two articles may be of help I'll email them to you in the morning (when I'm awake!). John |
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Post by spurley on Jun 22, 2007 6:05:44 GMT
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Jun 22, 2007 9:09:25 GMT
I am not sure rotary and sleeve valves are the same or not . More than 40 years ago I worked on Bristol Sidley Piston engines fitted in Vickers Vicing aircraft and they had sleeve valves , complicated ,Yes ,good ,Yes, if these are similar then you would get very good performance once built .Nothing is impossible , I am sure you will succeed and be very proud of the result . The only obstacle you will see when you take your eyes off the goal .
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Post by Boadicea on Jun 22, 2007 9:28:49 GMT
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
|
Post by simonwass on Jun 22, 2007 16:52:38 GMT
I'll reply to everything in this post. Simon, I have the book. There's not much on the Paget 2-6-2. No drawings, one photo (same as your avatar). I'll e-mail the relevant pages in the next day or two. Thanks Asquith for the offer, it'll influence my possible purchase, if I dont buy I'm only cheating the 2nd hand sellers! Hi Simon, and I thought I was a glutton for punishment In issue 2333 'For Your Bookshelf' reference is made to The "Paget" Locomotive by James Clayton. Apparently this was a 12 page brochure containing a reprint from 'The Railway Gazette' which is said to give a complete description of the loco with some drawings. Also there was an article by Kenneth H Leech published in 'The Journal of the Stevenson Locomotive Society' in early 1945 which gave further details. In issue 2892 there is a short article by E F Carter on the loco with a brief description of the workings of the valve gear. It sounds as though the outer sleeve had ports cut in it to admit steam to the cylinders. Rotating the sleeve by means of the geared drive altered the position of the ports relative to the valve and hence changed the cut-off point. If you think the two articles may be of help I'll email them to you in the morning (when I'm awake!). John Hi John, If you have the articles already on the PC you can send, I have the Clayton article from the Railway Gazette already as photocopies from York NRM. This is a VERY interesting read which I have scanned so if anyone wants it..... I have issue 2892 somewhere so I can save you scanning it if you havent already. I understand most of the engine except the sleeve valve, it doesnt look like it would run in reverse but I'm waiting for the research centre to reopen to check more drawings. Hi Brian, I've found 5 or 6 online from £12 to £64 (!), I didnt want to buy if there was no further useful info in it but it does sound a good read anyway so I might buy all the same. I am not sure rotary and sleeve valves are the same or not . More than 40 years ago I worked on Bristol Sidley Piston engines fitted in Vickers Vicing aircraft and they had sleeve valves , complicated ,Yes ,good ,Yes, if these are similar then you would get very good performance once built .Nothing is impossible , I am sure you will succeed and be very proud of the result . The only obstacle you will see when you take your eyes off the goal . The sleeves are the main problem, as Paget found out! I'm sure modern materials (Johns piston valves for example) will help out, even simply finding differing metals with similar cooeficients of expansion will stop the thing locking up. Who in their right mind would run an iron valve in a bronze liner all within an iron cylinder! I hadn't checked Ebay! I've put it on my watching list. Thanks everyone for your help and comments, I've got to send some stuff to Brian Radford and he'll see if he can help in a small way, he's a busy man and I want to research the thing myself anyway. I might ring someone from the Little Midland Society who I've been told he might know something useful. |
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on Jun 22, 2007 18:02:43 GMT
Hi Brian, I just checked out the link, this isnt the Derby book as I assumed! Its the article that was in the Railway Gazette, the sellers comment on it being rare might be justified! Its an expensive 8 pages though, but....... shall I, shant I..... I'll sleep on it The cheapest Derby book I found is an ex library book, we all know how these can end up, I might go for a better example, 239 pages is a good read in anyones money. |
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Post by asquith on Jun 22, 2007 18:22:59 GMT
Simon,
I've e-mailed the relevant pages of the Derby book.
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Post by asquith on Jun 22, 2007 18:59:25 GMT
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Post by havoc on Jun 22, 2007 19:08:26 GMT
The Self site is goldmine for absurd locs. And it is not only time consuming, but also inspiring. I found there my dream project. Only 3-3 projects to acquire some experience before I tackle it. At least this will give me time to ponder on the scale to be used.
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Post by alanstepney on Jun 22, 2007 20:47:28 GMT
I saw an article on the Paget loco many years ago, and also thought "hey, that would make a fascinating model".
I then decided that my list of "models I would like to build", was far too long anyway. plus I could see Pagets taking an inordinate amount of time, so decided to leave it to someone far braver than me!
Good luck Simon!
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Jun 22, 2007 23:22:57 GMT
G'day Simon
What a brilliant engine to model. Being simple minded I can see 8 single acting oscillating cylinders and a Briggs boiler without the water wall! Paget must have been a model engineer.
I wonder if there is a prototype with a Smithies boiler? There apparently is a prototype with oscillating cylinders! (Only in the US, where else?
One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian
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Post by chris vine on Jun 23, 2007 19:16:24 GMT
Hi Simon,
Have you seen a book called "Experiments with Steam" by Charles Fryer? I have a copy here and it has 12 pages on the Paget Locomotive.
There are several drawings, a GA, a plan view of the chassis, boiler drawings and more importantly a drawing of "Sections across one of the two cylinder-and-valve castings". These good drawings are all acknowledged to be from the Railway Gazette.
I could scan the pages for you but I think a better source might be the Railway Gazette, I guess there must have been quite a good article on it at some time in the past.
Hope this helps...
Chris.
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Post by havoc on Jun 23, 2007 19:45:35 GMT
I'm feeling better now I know I'm not alone...
Really Simon, if you start this model some day, then please start a thread here about the building of it. This is going to be such an experience that lots of people can benefit from. At last someone is off the trodden paths of history building something that hasn't been build by the dozens.
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
|
Post by simonwass on Jun 23, 2007 20:30:46 GMT
Hi Simon, Have you seen a book called "Experiments with Steam" by Charles Fryer? I have a copy here and it has 12 pages on the Paget Locomotive. There are several drawings, a GA, a plan view of the chassis, boiler drawings and more importantly a drawing of "Sections across one of the two cylinder-and-valve castings". These good drawings are all acknowledged to be from the Railway Gazette. I could scan the pages for you but I think a better source might be the Railway Gazette, I guess there must have been quite a good article on it at some time in the past. Hope this helps... Chris. Hi Chris, I have photocopies of these pages, they were done for me by someone in Jersey in response to one of my first enquiries about the loco. I've made a point of responding to info adverts on homeworkshop ever since as he set me on my way, so to speak. If you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate good scans as my photocopies are getting rough! Being really cheeky, are you able to do a high res scan (300dpi saved as .png) of the drawings on pages 106 & 109? My email account has no size limit! Just for info I have the following which feature the Paget loco; Books I have; British Steam Railway Locomotive 1825-1925. EL Ahrons Prototype locomotives. RM Tuffnell British Locomotives of the 20th Centuary Vol 1. OS Nock List of engine & tender drawings (a copy of the 100 year old Loco Drawing Office book done as a word file) Magazines I have ; BackTrack January 2000. B Mills Steam Days February 1992. B Jackson Photocopied articles; Railway Gazette 2 November 1945. J Clayton. Experiments with steam. C Fryer Drawings I have from York NRM; Side elevation + plan End elevations Bogie Boiler Framing Tender framing Tender body - I need the alterations drawing for the Paget tender which I didnt find out until I got home Drawings I have seen at York NRM; Cylinder Notch up gearwheels Photo; The photo of the engine in steam showing background Now I know the reprinted book of the Railway Gazette article exists (thanks to John & Brian), I'm looking to buy it. Brian points out 1 for sale and I found another for £8.50 (far cheaper than £22.50!) but its sold. £22.50 for 12 pages is a bit steep but to get original prints of the drawings from it makes it reasonable. When the research centre reopens hopefully in October, I'll be spending a lot of time (and money) studying the loco to see if a model is feasable. At the moment the valve timing as drawn will not enable to loco to reverse correctly but I'm sure it did so further work is needed. CAD drawings are already advancing well. |
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
|
Post by simonwass on Jun 23, 2007 21:24:07 GMT
I'm feeling better now I know I'm not alone... Really Simon, if you start this model some day, then please start a thread here about the building of it. This is going to be such an experience that lots of people can benefit from. At last someone is off the trodden paths of history building something that hasn't been build by the dozens. I'll probably be doing something along the lines of John's (Baggo) site for his Helen Long. Thinking a way into the future, a book of some sort interests me as everything 'out there' just regurgitates the same info which is fine but the loco deserves better. There are very few photos though, just the 1 of the whole loco and a handfull of the valves being scrapped. Phil Atkins told me that the Pagets are buried at a place called Sutton Bonnington near Jcn24 of the M1. As I do my training at Ratcliffe power station, last year I visited the graves and paid my respects. For such wealthy people their corner of the graveyard is in need of some tidying. The graveyard is right next to the Midland main line. (52'49'37.6",-1'15'10.8") |
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Post by chris vine on Jun 24, 2007 20:30:59 GMT
Hi Simon,
Sure I can do a hi res scan but it looks as though I can do a bmp, jpg, tiff or pdf. Are any of these any good? Which is best for you?
What is a png when it is at home?
Chris.
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If so then WOW is all I can say. Those valves don't look simple from the little I saw of it. But succes to that project.
