is this boiler pass saving or not

[terry1956]

hi. well after waiting over three years for a new boiler to be made by a well known boiler maker, today I returned home with my old one. how these people remain employed beats me. anyway my question is can this boiler be saved or not. on preforming a pressure test I found water leaking from the firebox inner wrap. you can see the place marked red in the picure. its on the join that water pours out. Now after three years of hearing stories of boilers being made and so on I don't really wish to walk that path again. so can this old boiler be saved or not. I have excess to oxy acetylene which should help. so whats your views. if you think it can be saved how would you go about undertaking the work. thanks. Michael

[runner42]

It doesn't look optimistic, working against a significant repair is that the firebox staying has been caulked probably using lead based soft solder. This prevents the use of silver solder to effect a repair because heating to the boiler to silver solder temperatures will cause the lead base soft solder to affect the copper and produce more problems. I don't know if the area of concern that you have marked in red (orange?) is the boiler itself or has the photograph been touched up, however it looks unusual. I recommend that you show your boiler inspector and seek his opinion on the nature of the leak, but the fact that you decided to go for a new boiler suggest that it was your decision in the past to scrap it. 

Brian

[Shawki Shlemon]

I would like to ask few questions
1- Is this the only leak you have on the boiler ?
2- is the black stuff soft solder ?
3- is the leaking joint open or separated ?
4- how wide is the foundation ?
I suggest to see the boiler inspector , if this is the only leak , will he agree to strengthen the area with a copper rivet or two and seal with soft solder and may be reduce operating pressure to 80 psi to reduce the operating temperature . 80 psi is ample to operate the engine satisfactory . This is how they built the boilers before and worked OK but this will only be in a small spot . Just an idea .

[Deleted]

Hi Michael

I can see how it could be tempting to try and fix your boiler if that was the only place that it's leaking from, hell I would do so myself as it's location may mean you can avoid to much direct heat into the firebox and it's stays but what really worries me is the copious amount of soft solder seen. The boiler may only leak from the marked position now but what happens once heat is applied when steaming for the first time? It's the unknown history that concerns me. I can understand your frustration with waiting for a professional boiler to be made, in fact it was a topic discussed at length at my club this week. Seems one of our members had been waiting for some years for his and has now passed away...very sad....Another who had spent a lot of time and money building his own boiler for a large 5" loco had to admit defeat and scrap his boiler after chasing leaks, he's been told that there's a 2 year waiting list before his boiler even gets a look in. Interestingly on talking to a few of our boiler inspectors things seem to have changed in recent years, I remember when Tig welded boilers were frowned upon, now it seems that in as far as the guys who I was speaking with on Wednesday they are the preferred choice, this from members of the older brigade who I respect greatly, the consensus is, they are cheaper, quicker to build, stronger and easily repairable.....how things have changed??

Pete

[jma1009]

hi michael,

brian's comments above are excellent and to the point.

it is a most interesting boiler. it appears to have a riveted joint for the inner firebox wrapper to inner firebox doorplate, closely riveted, and run over with soft solder or comsol as a caulking medium. if the riveting has been done well then this was a perfectly acceptable way of making a boiler to 80psi years ago, and there are lots of boilers still around with riveted and soft soldered joints.

it isnt a method that would be approved of now, and would only get approval if you can prove 'grandfather rights'. and will ultimely depend on the discretion of your club boiler inspector and what paperwork you have to show the boiler had previously been given boiler certificates.

without the close riveting shown in your pic i would say the boiler was scrap, but re-caulking should be possible depending on what your club boiler inspector says and what old paperwork you have.
in the absence of old boiler certificates i would also say the boiler is scrap.

cheers,
julian

[ettingtonliam]

is it of any significance that the nuts on the threaded stays in the firehole doorplate are missing, and some of the stays look too short to take them? I always thought the nut was there to provide additional anchorage on the inside, same as the rivetting over on the outside, and to protect the stay ends from burning.
Has this boiler ever been used, it looks awfully clean?

[terry1956]

Thanks chaps for your input. I think it looks like a new made by me boiler. I don't have the time to wait for a maker to make his/her mind up if they can be assed to do it. In fact my partner has the idea that part of these boiler makers remit is to delay as long as possible in building with the hope that the poor fellow who handed over is money just gives up waiting for it ever to be done. Put for fun I will have a go at repairing the old one just out of interest. will let you all know how I get on later. michael

[jma1009]

hi richard,

i was of the same opinion re those stays on the backhead protruding inside on the inner firebox doorplate, but these stays appear to be silver soldered so if sound no problem there. the firehole is a split ring silver soldered though not quite sure what the ring of metal around the firehole ring is inside. as i said, a most interesting boiler.

a boiler is 50 or more percent of a loco, and we ought to spend far more time discussing these things than other smaller less insignificant parts!

michael, what loco is is the boiler for please and what gauge? i am sorry that you have had problems with a commercial maker.

cheers,
julian

[runner42]

Hi Julian,

I agree, in fact the staying in the firebox although riveted and nutted has been silver soldered, the probability is that the boiler has largely been silver soldered and that the seam shown has a repair attempted which was by the copious use of rivets and soft solder, trading off the use of increased mechanical joining with the use of a caulking medium that has no mechanical strength. However, seemingly the repair didn't work, but that doesn't preclude that the boiler cannot be reworked to affect an adequate repair. What needs to be considered by the boiler inspector is are the rivets providing adequate mechanical strength and the caulking medium only providing water tight integrity. My assumption is that it does. The repair if it is attempted could be the addition of another rivet or two above the existing rivets to close off the open seam and a bit more solder.

I could have stated this at the outset, but I stress that this is the responsibility of the boiler inspector who can have a close examination of the boiler, review its provenance and make a decision based on that inspection and not for the likes of I who is unqualified and remotely looking at a single photograph.

Brian

PS I note that Shawki proposed the same repair that I have indicated.

PPS It may be that the foundation ring prevented the addition of further rivets beyond those already shown.

[ejparrott]

I don't know what boiler maker you went to, but GB boilers are still offering less than a year for a traditional silver soldered boiler I think, and steam technology are around the 8 months mark for a TIG welded boiler

[ronhancock]

Hi I have been in a similar position i have gone to GB Boilers at Bedworth Coventry the waiting time was only three months he is mainly doing 71/4 but does any size.
Mine for my Black 5 will be ready for the weekend.
Good luck hope you get sorted.
I could not down load a photo on here but you can see my boiler on medel engineer site under black 5 boiler.
Ron

[fizzy]

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