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Post by george on Jan 9, 2018 18:37:06 GMT
Hello all, i dont know if you've been reading about the 5 inch gauge 4mt debacle on facebook, but it got me thinking about these models, i have found one supplier in china, they are called bowande, does anybody else know the names of suppliers over there, i know that some models are not very good but they seem to be getting better so i thought i would look into them, so if you have any information about suppliers please PM me.
Regards
George
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jan 9, 2018 18:45:05 GMT
It must be me, but I find the search engine on Facebook does not return a lot of results. I keep hearing about Facebook pages but can never find them?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 18:55:40 GMT
I read the page George...well some of it....people bashing other's products/plans doesn't hold my interest for long, I'm not one for attacking another person/company's hard work and so made no comment. There may well be a few issues but usually these are sorted out in due course, afraid I can't help with Chinese suppliers who may be able to help. The loco looked nice to me but then I'm looking at a picture and at a class I know little about. good luck in your search...
regards
Pete
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Post by dhamblin on Jan 9, 2018 19:34:57 GMT
I think there are closed groups for 5" gauge modellers etc. on Facebook, which you have to apply to join.
Must admit that the Kingscale BR Std 4MT tank model that is shown on their website doesn't look bad at all, but I haven't seen any images of this other model that was displayed at the Midlands show to compare it against.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by simplyloco on Jan 9, 2018 19:55:07 GMT
One our members bought one of these last year. It looked lovely, but would not run as it was virtually seized on receipt. It runs OK now, but only after it had gone back a few times... John www.kingscalelivesteam.co.uk/14XXgauge5.php
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 9, 2018 22:42:20 GMT
One of thise Kingscale locos ran in Australia last year at Hotpot in Illawarra. I did see it being steamed up as it was pretty fresh out of the box from memory.Just over 10 grand Aussie dollars from memory.
It was on the track doing its thing as per the instructions. Guess there is a place for them in the hobby but I would rather purchase one made by a real model engineer, like from stock materials. Rather the warm fuzzies thats its been created with love and care rather than on some production line in inland China.
I know its hard to escape the fact of mass manufacturing these days from the Far East for you northerners but after 15 years of being forced to buy crap goods its wears a bit thin, be it ladders, heaters or tools. Sometimes it impossible to buy domestically made goods fullstop. They just do not exist anymore.
Chinese loco.....the ultimate in cheque book modelling.
P.s Love to read the instruction book for one....without corrections. It would be a hoot😂😂😂
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Post by Cro on Jan 10, 2018 8:34:06 GMT
Mass produced models if is successful , its the writing on the wall of the beginning of the END of the hobby as we know it . A few people will get a cheaper engines but the art of the modeling and experience will disappear then the real interest in the hobby not just the toy will go . In my opinion and experience the major part of the hobby is in making / fixing / maintaining / problem solving and most important the exchange of information between members of the club/s , All these will be done by some obscure factory thousands of miles away . I personally don't like even kits but with them at least the owner has some contribution to the completed model . Hey Shawki, This comment was made on one of the above mentioned Facebook posts and I have to agree with a lot of the reply's that its not the beginning of the end but the beginning of a new era of model engineers. I agree it is not teaching people how to build but it certainly will allow people a way into the hobby with a running engine that they can learn on. Some people have families, young families, full time jobs and don't have the time to learn or facilities to the workshops so does that mean they shouldn't be allowed into the hobby? This ready to run locos give them that opportunity. I don't fully agree with the way these locos are done, I think the overall quality could be significantly better but they are made at a price and a price I certainly couldn't make one for. I mean 8k for a BR Std 4MT is seriously cheap in my books. No its not a Hewson model but I know those to go for 30k!!! We have always encouraged newbies to the Polly locos, whats different about these and Polly??? Adam (P.S. not trying to spark anything off, all positive here just felt it was worth saying although quality is not the highest level these are a good thing in areas of the hobby to keep it going and bring people in)
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 10, 2018 9:22:28 GMT
Mass produced models if is successful , its the writing on the wall of the beginning of the END of the hobby as we know it . A few people will get a cheaper engines but the art of the modeling and experience will disappear then the real interest in the hobby not just the toy will go . In my opinion and experience the major part of the hobby is in making / fixing / maintaining / problem solving and most important the exchange of information between members of the club/s , All these will be done by some obscure factory thousands of miles away . I personally don't like even kits but with them at least the owner has some contribution to the completed model . I think the only part of that to go is the initial making. I am 63 with a lifetime in real engineering. I never held a file or stood next to a lathe in my career. What's wrong with getting on the track and slowly learning how to maintain, then do simple repairs, then maybe have a crack at putting something together from scratch? Industry, that the older members in this hobby grew up in, has regrettably all but gone. Pete.
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 10, 2018 9:24:28 GMT
Adam, Shawki
The prolifiration of ( Chinese ) production too may mean a dramatic change in model engineering societies more than anything.
I doubt that any of us that have a historical affinity for the ideals of the MES, the building and running of miniature steam locomotives will easily take on board the type of model engineering that lesser quality Eastern production locomotives will bring to the hobby.
I too agree that Polly, SRS and Maxitrack are just the first cabs off the rank in the "production modelling" ranks. I guess at the start Polly and Maxitrack came in for much criticism too amongst the establishment.Maybe its is the quality and not the quantity we are concerned with here at present. I have seen one firsthand in Australia and from the outside they look exceptional. We all know that building is one thing but all owners be they new buyers or builders have to have the skills to negotiate the trial and tribulations of commissioning. This is where the "buyer" will trip up and as many of you will know they will almost certainly seek the assistance of established MES members. Where else can they go to use them as I doubt there will be a proliferation of private tracks and garden railways.
Whether we like it or not the locos will come, but will the hobby meet the challange head on, that is the question.
I doubt building will disappear. Production manufacture will not dictate the supply of materials and enthusiasm a locomotive constructor has at home. The old skills will remain with those that hold them dear for a long time I think and personal acheivement is something no one can take away from an individual.
Long live model engineering.
.
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Post by Cro on Jan 10, 2018 9:40:19 GMT
Building will continue, I know this by how many bits I sell to people doing new builds rather than rebuilds, probably 80% is new build items (god knows how many 9fs in there!) and thats just covering guys doing BR Std's really.
I will say though if people are looking at the 4MT's to consider the Kingscale option and avoid the other one made and sold by KM1 and possible now Conway Engineering (young collage lad) these locos are very poor quality and in my opinion the boiler did not look well designed (very much a lack of stays on backhead, got photo somewhere)
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 10, 2018 13:55:25 GMT
Adam.
Would you agree that production manufacture and there acceptance in the hobby is hugely dependant on that miniatures quality of build.
I mean that like many products its survival of the fittest in terms of quality and value for money. I would probably say that Polly went through a phase where they had to sharpen up there act, knock off the rough edges so to speak and ultimately listen to there customers before they were taken seriously by the market.
I have just awarded two prizes at the New Zealand Model Engineering convention of which one was for best road vehicle. The winner was an experienced builder who constructed a Steam Modelworks 4" Foden steamtruck. This builder is a very experienced scratch loco builder but he told me of the stupid stuff he found whilst building the supposed kitset. Issues with completely wrong threads and inferior motion gear components which ment him using his own made components. In the end he built a supurb example but he needed all his skill to do it.
I am sure Kingscale or similar producers will knock off the sharp edges so to speak but it could be a hard road ahead for the non model engineer type of owner.As I said it might need a change of attitude from within the hobby to allow it to happen, to offer knowledge and guidance. Even now the body of knowlege is deminishing but at keast with a kitset builder there is a train of knowledge acquired during the build process, the ones out of the box there are just instructions and the rest is up to the buyer to figure out. Guess there are parallels with ready built model planes too flyers.The balsa basherers still exist to this day.
In the end these creations bring new interest to the hobby and that cannot be all that bad. Previous threads have thrashed the point out, maybe this is another option but just from a different part of the globe.
Time will tell.
P.s John Cottom enjoyed the summer sun at our convention.Smart man spending summer downunder.Doubt he will be building a kitset anytime soon.
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Post by doubletop on Jan 11, 2018 8:30:29 GMT
It’s been said; but surely anything that gets people started and actively involved in our clubs has to be a good thing. A percentage will fall by the wayside and some will go on to become excellent model engineers. It doesn’t really matter what the catalyst is that gets them started. It could even be argued that a few issues with a kit-set model is an advantage as there is then reason to make changes and improve things. Which is a process we all go through as there’s always something to tweak, and if there isn’t we’ll find something.
Pete
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Jan 11, 2018 10:24:47 GMT
Thanks for remarks , I hope that I am wrong and you guys are correct . I certainly hope that this will be a good thing as mentioned above . Time will tell .
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Post by Jim on Jan 11, 2018 12:36:22 GMT
I don't believe the hobby will die because of the availability of ready to run models for the reason that model engineering is a creative hobby that appeals to those of us who love making things.
My wife is an avid knitter, the fact that you can go and buy a jumper hasn't dampened her enthusiasm and in fact knitting is making a big comeback.
There will always be those of us who love building working models of locomotives and there will be those who'd love a working model but lack the skills or time to build one. Now the option to buy a ready to run model will be there for them.
Jim
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jan 11, 2018 13:30:32 GMT
As a newcomer to model engineering but also long term railway modeller, I do not see the increase of RTR models as the death of the hobby. It will compliment it, allowing those who do not have the time or skills to participate, while those newcomers like me who want to build there own locomotives will continue to do so. With reference to maintaining them you can probably apply the 80/20 rule. 80% will learn how to deal with locos, 20% probably will not bother/find they don't have the skills/find it is not them and sell up and leave. There may be shift in dynamic at club level, but nothing stays the same forever. I have seen the same concerns from doom mongers in the railway modelling world for the past 25 years, yet the hobby is still there with no signs of dying yet, RTR locos are the norm but people are still kit and scratch build. Dave
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Jan 12, 2018 9:41:46 GMT
This will be my last input on this topic , in the short term it may seem to be a good thing but in the long term if and only IF the mass production of locos by China or elsewhere succeed more people even those who can build/part build find is much cheaper to buy than cost of plans/castings and materials not to mention setting the workshop for one or two locos which is the normal thing . then the businesses like Reeves and other will feel the pinch and either raise the prices to make ends meet or leave . This will make it even harder for the small number of builders . I never said the hobby will die , I said the hobby as we know it will die , the excitement and feeling of achievement when one makes a part that works will be gone , what will be left for the majority driving an engine on the track until they get bored . I take an engine to the club , steam it up , seldom I drive , other members drive it and I just watch , people like 'me will exit the hobby . This will not happen next week and it will not effect me , I am 79 , not in my life time but I care very much for the hobby . In my opinion short term benefit and long term loss . We agree to disagree and time will tell .
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 15, 2018 18:33:53 GMT
Hi Shawki. I see on the cover of M.E issue #4573 a photo of the very own GWR 14XXClass that was at HotPot, gleaming in all its brilliance.
From memory it did do a bit of running. Was a great event and a good writeup. As said if there is one event to go to it is this one.
Hayden
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Jan 22, 2018 1:12:54 GMT
I grew up in my teenage years down at Buckfastleigh and became very knolegable on 4555 1450 1420 and dear 80064! Stood by the Kingscale Stand several hours ago now pointed out one of the details badly done on their Prairie? Yes the rocker cover is not a C shape more a V upsidedown! The 1400 is spot on for the front curve of the tanks! Modelworks ones can be spotted at 50 yards with an almost sharp fold. What spoils these models is the riveting! They are chemically etched with something that shouldent go into the rivers after it has been used! Yes our local River in Yaan was poisoned last year and it is looking very dead! Our local River Here within walking distance, is very much alive now we have got rid of much of our industry.
Thames for anyone into Geography or wondering.
David and Lily.
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Post by peterseager on Jan 27, 2018 0:02:06 GMT
My life long interest has been sailing, dinghy sailing in the context of this post,
I built my first boat and it was not unusual for people to do so. Bell woodworking supplied plans and kits for amateur construction. The Mirror dinghy was built by the hundreds and introduced a lot of people to sailing. Today almost everyone buys a boat that is ready to sail and sailing is still as popular.
Early attempts at ready to run (RTR) locos were a failure but Polly and Kingscale seem to prove RTR locos are feasible and so we will see the same changes that sailing has seen.
Peter
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Post by Jim on Jan 27, 2018 6:29:55 GMT
That's an interesting point you make Peter. I too was going to build a boat, a Seabird Yawl, lovely lines (to my eye) and very seaworthy. It was my son who said, 'Buy a boat and get out on the water while you can.' We ended up with a 2 berth fibreglass, 18' Careel trailer sailer, a tupperware boat as the traditional wooden boat owners call it. The point of this is that boat ownership and participation has boomed as a result of being able to buy affordable of the shelf boats. So maybe the access to well made ready to run locomotives from China could see more getting involved in the hobby.
Jim
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