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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 8:30:23 GMT
The government has announced today that the UK will be first major economy to follow WHO air quality goals, this doesn't only effect IC engines where the writing is clearly on the wall, IMHO they will be history within my lifetime, certainly my children's. But today they are also looking at the main air pollutant (according to scientists) when talking air particles, IE stoves, log burners, etc. Part of this is to phase out sales of bituminous or traditional coal, if this happened would the product still be mined, is it worth the cost to the companies involved? I think it's a valid question and the impact that it could have on us steam fans, not just in model form but what about full size??
What do you guys think?
Pete
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jan 14, 2019 9:39:35 GMT
Pete In British Columbia, Burnaby all but one of their locos is fired by gas. I asked why, The public do not like the smell of the coal!!!!! In today's papers Gove is after smelly candles, what next. We have held the Gov off our hobby as it is a hobby but I think I am going to get friendly with Julian who has a shed load of coal or may be we just go and buy all we can get. Stupid buggers!!!! D
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 14, 2019 10:04:59 GMT
It would not be viable to operate a mine just for hobby use, in my opinion, even if it was for all the preserved and miniature operations in GB.
The day is dawning when I will be buying coal from abroad to run a steam engine in South Wales.
BBQs will be next. Then fires at Scout Camps and November 5th.
Pete.
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Post by Doug on Jan 14, 2019 10:13:47 GMT
The clean air “thingy” has exclusions and they include both preservation railways and by association live steam hobbies. This was outlined in “Steam” magazine last month I think. So no need to worry about it yet.😉
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 10:27:32 GMT
It's good to hear that Doug, I just hope they stick too it... there is also exclusions for historic vehicles (over 40 years old) which will still be able to drive in London and other cities when all other IC engines are banned, plans are for this to be enforced within the next couple of years in London, but for how long will these exclusions remain? I'm looking at it from both our hobby and my other passion of classic cars...My car has another 8 years to go before hitting 40 but perhaps in days to come it will be the only way for me to still enjoy driving. I also need a car for transporting 4472 when finished but what to buy? Diesel.. certainly not, I have seen some very mouth watering (tempting) deals on diesel estates of late which would be perfect for my needs but thow much longer would I be able to use it? my son is currently having trouble selling his very high spec BMW estate because it's diesel, it's probably lost half it's value over the last year or so?
Things are a changing, the air may be fresher but what today we accept as the norm will very much not be the norm in years to come..
Pete
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Post by David on Jan 14, 2019 10:40:26 GMT
It sounds a bit like Australia trying to lead the way in renewable energy and phasing out coal fired power plants. What a joke! I'm sure it'll make a big difference and allow India and China to continue burning the stuff with a clean conscience knowing Australia is keeping the air clean for them.
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Post by silverfox on Jan 14, 2019 11:14:39 GMT
I seem to recall an article where the UK output of nasties in the worldwide scheme of things was 2%
The so called intelligent poiticians and other self centred know it alls. How many scientific predictions have actually come close to what happened subsequently, look at the millenium bug. Nothong at all yet planes wre goin to fall out of the sky ships collide, all data lost did it happen? did it?
now put this question to those who want us to go to zero output of our 2% to save the planet
If i were to punch you in the face 100 times, and then do it 98 times could you tell the difference the difference it would make? And that M'lud is what i base my argument on Not science, but the tatisfaction of never tiring of smacking these idiots in the face!!
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jan 14, 2019 11:30:49 GMT
Isn't "intelligent politician" an oxymoron? D
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 14, 2019 11:34:54 GMT
I worked in the UK coal mining industry at the time of its closing down. It was mainly a political decision, with some financial reasoning, some of it very dodgy incidentally, to back it up.
We could/should have phased things out. We ended up importing tens of millions of tonnes per year with communities like mine falling apart and ending up on their backsides with no prospect of recovery.
Politicians have pushed the green energy route but I am very doubtful about the figures and benefits. I read a recent study that said there were far more benefits to be gained from energy efficiency than on the generating side as things stand.
Unfortunately our leaders have no clue about the technical issues and I agree 100% with what has been said in this thread.
Fortunately it appears we will be able to run, albeit with imported fuel.
Pete.
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Post by Roger on Jan 14, 2019 15:03:03 GMT
It sounds a bit like Australia trying to lead the way in renewable energy and phasing out coal fired power plants. What a joke! I'm sure it'll make a big difference and allow India and China to continue burning the stuff with a clean conscience knowing Australia is keeping the air clean for them. I think China is only interested in Coal power plants for the short term, their goal is world domination of Nuclear power technology using Molten Salt Thorium reactors. This video shows their progress as of last year. If you haven't seen this technology before, this is what all of the excitement is about. Everyone's heard of Fusion reactors, but in my opinion they will never be commercially viable. Molten Salt reactors on the other hand are within reach.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 15:11:45 GMT
It sounds a bit like Australia trying to lead the way in renewable energy and phasing out coal fired power plants. What a joke! I'm sure it'll make a big difference and allow India and China to continue burning the stuff with a clean conscience knowing Australia is keeping the air clean for them. I think China is only interested in Coal power plants for the short term, their goal is world domination of Nuclear power technology using Molten Salt Thorium reactors. This video shows their progress as of last year. If you haven't seen this technology before, this is what all of the excitement is about. Everyone's heard of Fusion reactors, but in my opinion they will never be commercially viable. Molten Salt reactors on the other hand are within reach. I thought that I had seen a program (probably a news item) that fusion had recently been solved and was being built now? or did I dream it... my dreams are usually nightmares so don't think it was a dream.. Just did a quick google.. nope I wasn't dreaming.. Pete
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jem
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,065
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Post by jem on Jan 14, 2019 17:52:38 GMT
all this green stuff is in order to justify even more tax.
Jem
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Post by Roger on Jan 14, 2019 18:18:35 GMT
I think China is only interested in Coal power plants for the short term, their goal is world domination of Nuclear power technology using Molten Salt Thorium reactors. This video shows their progress as of last year. If you haven't seen this technology before, this is what all of the excitement is about. Everyone's heard of Fusion reactors, but in my opinion they will never be commercially viable. Molten Salt reactors on the other hand are within reach. I thought that I had seen a program (probably a news item) that fusion had recently been solved and was being built now? or did I dream it... my dreams are usually nightmares so don't think it was a dream.. Just did a quick google.. nope I wasn't dreaming.. Pete Hi Pete, Fusion is far from ever being a commercially viable solution. They haven't created a system with a continuous net output, it's still an interesting multi-billion dollar experiment. The problem is that it's just really hard to do. Even with the latest generation of magnets, each reactor is going to be mind bogglingly expensive. I honestly think that if Molten Salt reactors hadn't been buried and forgotten, fusion would have never been attempted because it's simply unnecessary. Molten Salt reactors are an order of magnitude cheaper to develop and make commercially. They're fail safe, and have efficiencies of over 90% compared to 4% for the current and very dangerous pressurised water reactors. It's a fascinating technology which is being pursued by the Canadian, Indian and Chinese. The USA is the source of the original prototype Oak Ridge reactor, but their legislation effectively prohibits any development of this new technology. They will live to regret not picking this up and running with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 18:32:03 GMT
from what I've just read they are only 5 years from a commercial reactor, that's just minutes when talking Nuclear power.. we shall see how things turn out but since so many countries and power companies across the world are investing so much money in Fusion I suspect it won't be long before we see reactor's all over the world.... watch this space as the saying goes..
Pete
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Post by Roger on Jan 14, 2019 20:11:04 GMT
from what I've just read they are only 5 years from a commercial reactor, that's just minutes when talking Nuclear power.. we shall see how things turn out but since so many countries and power companies across the world are investing so much money in Fusion I suspect it won't be long before we see reactor's all over the world.... watch this space as the saying goes.. Pete Hmmm, I'll believe it when I see it. I can't see how will ever compete with the much simpler Molten Salt reactors which will surely cost a fraction of the amount to build. There are a few technical problems to solve with regard to corrosion and radiation resistant materials, but there are no big hurdles to overcome, it's been done in the laboratory already, forty years ago. Don't get me wrong, Fusion a fascinating technology and I'd love to see it work. We'd have had commercial Molten Salt reactors decades ago and with a fraction of the budget spent on Fusion, but nobody knew it even existed until relatively recently. In my opinion they've backed two wrong horses, Uranium Pressurised Water reactors and Fusion. As you say, watch this space!
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,720
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Post by mbrown on Jan 14, 2019 21:40:45 GMT
The clean air “thingy” has exclusions and they include both preservation railways and by association live steam hobbies. This was outlined in “Steam” magazine last month I think. So no need to worry about it yet.😉 The exceptions are fine in theory, but I think the big question is whether the heritage railway industry constitutes a big enough market for coal mines, coal importers, etc to maintain all the ancillary aspects for washing, grading and supplying the stuff. Whatever happens, I suspect the price will rocket and the impact on heritage railways, especially the smaller and less profitable ones, will be very serious. As long as the heritage railways continue to get supplies, model engineers should be OK - we can run for quite a while on a couple of lumps "borrowed" from someone's tender... But legal exceptions are worthless if the laws of supply and demand can't be met economically. Malcolm
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 21:46:07 GMT
The clean air “thingy” has exclusions and they include both preservation railways and by association live steam hobbies. This was outlined in “Steam” magazine last month I think. So no need to worry about it yet.😉 The exceptions are fine in theory, but I think the big question is whether the heritage railway industry constitutes a big enough market for coal mines, coal importers, etc to maintain all the ancillary aspects for washing, grading and supplying the stuff. Whatever happens, I suspect the price will rocket and the impact on heritage railways, especially the smaller and less profitable ones, will be very serious. As long as the heritage railways continue to get supplies, model engineers should be OK - we can run for quite a while on a couple of lumps "borrowed" from someone's tender... But legal exceptions are worthless if the laws of supply and demand can't be met economically. Malcolm That was my point Malcolm, let's hope it's not as bad as it looks, I see that it's also been noted on one of the FB groups, not models but preserved railways... Pete
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Post by David on Jan 14, 2019 22:31:25 GMT
Fusion has always been 10 years in the future and sadly looks to continue to be! It would be brilliant if we could make it work.
I listened to a podcast about the thorium salt reactors at least 5 years ago. If they're as good as Roger says it will be nice if they start getting built. If China and India are serious about them it will prove them commercially, good for the rest of us.
My point about China and India's coal use is that they probably burn so much more of it than Australia does that even if Australia never burned another gram that saving would be eclipsed in a very short time by them, regardless of their push for nuclear energy.
As for Australia's energy generation I'm constantly stumped by our resistance to domestic nuclear power given we have such a stable landscape, lots of uranium, and loads of empty desert to store the nasty results.
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Post by andyhigham on Jan 16, 2019 20:54:56 GMT
I would have no qualms about converting my locos to gas or oil firing. I would be most unhappy to lose my open fire in the lounge and my life would be in tatters if I could never have another wood fire cooked pizza
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 16, 2019 22:07:59 GMT
I forget the exact details but around 1994/5 a ship load of Polish coal was unloaded at I think Hull Docks organised by the UK Heritage Railways organisation.
Many UK preserved steam railways used it as did mainline steam specials. I still have some of it in my shed. Took a bit of getting used to but quite good stuff.
At my last visit to the Moors Valley Railway near the New Forest in Hampshire they were using imported Chinese coal.
Lots of the remaining UK coal fired power stations use imported foreign coal because despite the shippage etc and UK rail transportation it still works out cheaper than UK coal.
Cheers,
Julian
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