|
|
Post by suctionhose on Apr 24, 2020 7:44:27 GMT
Although this is not how I want my model engineering to be at all, I'm amazed at the 3D CAD work you're doing and of course, the methods used to produce components. (Especially in Australia). Each to his own but I certainly concede this is tremendous work!
|
|
kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 575 
|
Post by kipford on Apr 24, 2020 8:41:58 GMT
Martin
We have just done exactly the same only in full size for Canadian Pacific at the Mid Hants! Except we fabricated it from a CAD model using plasma cut parts. In preservation we are using modern methods as much as possible to reduce cost and lead time.
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 24, 2020 17:07:52 GMT
Dave
we will also use tab and slot design and water jet profile cut technology where ever possible.
Of course at 1/16 scale these opportunities are more limited that at full size if we want to maintain the detail of the full size design.
i look forward to hearing about progress casting the new centre cylinder
ciao martyn
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 27, 2020 6:18:59 GMT
Current and Future Costs of 3D Printing• But what are the costs of these 3D metal printed parts – well at the moment they're high but we're expecting this to change very significantly over time due to the rapid advance of the technology of 3D printing • The following graphs show the cost curves over time for Personal Computers and their technologies, internet connection speeds and sequencing of the human Genome. Note that the first two graphs are linear ones whereas the second two are logarithmic. • We're assuming cost of 3D printing will fall over the coming years following a typical technology cost curve. The cost is much more dependent upon footprint size in the build chamber and the total laser ‘tool path’ distance, rather than on raw material cost. • Current cost of the 3D printed motion brackets and stretcher ranges between 100 to 200 UK pounds or A$200-400 each • Best guess suggests that the cost of 3D printing is expected to reduce by 2/3 over the next 5 years and 4/5 over the next 10 years • This suggests that the printed brackets and other components will become reasonably affordable especially considering the time saved in making them from scratch    
|
|
|
|
Post by Cro on Apr 27, 2020 7:02:14 GMT
Martyn,
I think its very difficult to compare metal 3D printers to things such as computers or batteries, which are items that if developed correctly to their full potential to become useful everyday items, will drive the price down to work in the affordable market as they have done. I think metal 3D printers are something of a speciality that the everyday household will never need so I think the comparison is a bit off if you were to try and equate the time lines.
These printers are designed for a purpose totally different to that of the 'cheap' kit build printers off ebay or similar which all do a great job for what they are (proven by the current mass production of PPE around the world right now) but they are not cut out for anything more than that and I think its the same with the metal or even wax printers, you'll never use those in an everyday sense so the demand will never be the same and in fact if anything the prices will stay the same or go up because as technology evolves they only get better demanding a higher price.
I love the optimism but sadly I can't see the prices dropping as much as you suggest even if I wish they would. I also think you may find that wax prints and cast version of the stretchers and brackets would work out very similar if not cheaper and be of a better quality. I did a pair of slide bar brackets in 2 1/2" for a chap doing a Merchant Navy (I think) and they worked out about £40-£45 each printed and cast, sadly I can't find any photo of it.
Love what you have done and look forward to it coming together.
Adam
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 27, 2020 11:41:46 GMT
Adam
being a glass half full type of guy i have to disagree - the issue we can't foresee is the rapid pace of change of technology in 3D printing.
there are technologies available now that were not around 3 or 5 years ago and it is the rapid pace of change in the particular technologies for 3D printing that will drive down costs.
all that said we will try your manufacturing process route on a complex bracket such as the inside motion bracket i.e. 3D wax print then cast.
I think we should wager a very good lunch on the fall in pricing over the periods i'm talking about - i'm happy to deliver in the UK if i loose the bet!
best regards MArtyn
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 27, 2020 12:02:40 GMT
Full Size Inside Motion Bracket
I found this photo I took of the Inside Motion Bracket on 34046 Braunton, in 2015, which was undergoing a rebuild at Tyseley Loco works. compare it with the 3D printed bracket i detailed in my post on 7th April 
|
|
|
|
Post by Cro on Apr 27, 2020 12:52:20 GMT
Martyn,
I have no doubt the cost will drop eventually but I don't think its comparable to the likes of the computers & batteries you used. The demand for those products is huge in everyday life whereas metal 3D printing isn't. Cheap printers have became available at lower and lower prices as people love to play around and try things but they soon get mothballed but the metal printing is quite specialist and I think it always will be. I'm typically a half glass full but I have been monitoring this one for a few years as we tried to use it for Hydraulic manifolds when I was working at Instron and the price was crazy then and still is now.
I will go searching through more photos for the slide bar brackets and see if I can find them, I don't think you'll beat them for quality or price and non of the "professional" print houses can come close to our price.
Adam
|
|
|
|
Post by Cro on Apr 27, 2020 15:21:36 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Apr 27, 2020 15:37:49 GMT
Adam being a glass half full type of guy i have to disagree - the issue we can't foresee is the rapid pace of change of technology in 3D printing. there are technologies available now that were not around 3 or 5 years ago and it is the rapid pace of change in the particular technologies for 3D printing that will drive down costs. all that said we will try your manufacturing process route on a complex bracket such as the inside motion bracket i.e. 3D wax print then cast. I think we should wager a very good lunch on the fall in pricing over the periods i'm talking about - i'm happy to deliver in the UK if i loose the bet! best regards MArtyn Hi Martyn, The price of 3D printing metal will certainly fall as industry takes it up. I doubt very much whether it will ever be a domestic product though. That's because you need high powered lasers which are dangerous and don't have a very long life. You also have to post process the prints in furnaces. What that final price of a printed part will end up is anyone's guess though. It's not a particularly quick process, so it's hard to see them being particularly cheap. |
|
|
|
Post by andyhigham on Apr 27, 2020 19:05:25 GMT
Way back when I was at training school (about 44 years ago) one of the instructors was "3D printing" a knight on horseback. He was using an oxy acetylene torch and brazing rods. At the time he was up to the knights waist
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 27, 2020 23:36:58 GMT
Roger
i agree absolutely 3D metal printing will never be a domestic product but the usefulness for industry is extraordinary.
by the time our design is finished we'll probably be able to foresee the answer which if no then there is always the print wax and cast process technology to fall back on.
ciao martyn
|
|
Haymes
Active Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by Haymes on Apr 28, 2020 6:32:56 GMT
Hi Martyn, I was very interested in your cylinder casting from a 3D printed plastic pattern. How was the pattern rammed up with sand into for example the steam passageways? Or did you make core boxes? Was the pattern separable so that cores could be inserted as you go? I have some experience of casting with polystyrene patterns but I also used conventional core boxes. Really interesting project! Thank you for posting. Regards, Carl Inside Cylinder
• This is almost certainly the most complex single component in the whole loco  |
|
Haymes
Active Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by Haymes on Apr 28, 2020 6:37:36 GMT
I've just realised - it's an investment casting! Very clever. Was the 3D print in PLA?
Regards,
Carl
|
|
kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 575
|
Post by kipford on Apr 28, 2020 9:00:20 GMT
Before I retired, a couple of years ago. I had one of my engineers carry out a very interesting project. We had a long complex manifold fabricated in stainless steel from tube, machined and sheet metal parts. Being in the aircraft industry weight is very important, but so is cost. Don't believe all the stories about using the lightest materials, if the costs don't stack up then any weight saving is binned. Anyway we looked at using Titanium in in lieu of stainless. Material properties are as good if not better than the stainless we were using, but half the weight and normally two to three times the price. Printing it you only use the material that forms the part so there is no waste. Anyway we got a very successful print which we put through a qualification test programme to see how it performance compared with the original which was very encouraging. Cost wise the two parts came out not that far apart about 20% more expensive for the printed version. The big 'but' is the lack of validated materials testing data available on the as printed materials, such as fatigue data and the effects of process control. The big major aerospace companies are getting the data together, but for smaller tier companies like we were, that data is not yet available and is very expensive and time consuming to generate. For non structural applications this is not an issue, but it will come and the shape efficiency it will allow will be mind blowing.
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Apr 28, 2020 9:29:21 GMT
That's because you need high powered lasers which are dangerous and don't have a very long life. Roger that is happily no longer the case the lasers of old have been superseded by fiberoptic lasers with tuned diode light sources the cost of which has dropped through the floor. For instance the old diode packs (light sources) for the last generation lasers cost £16k that’s just a consumable diode pack alone. A modern comparable fibre laser which is also now air cooled so does not require a big chiller is £8k that’s for the whole thing!!! Lasers are dropping in cost very fast indeed and I can see them being available at home eventually, as for safety you wouldn’t microwave with your door open would you. Kinda same thing. I also remember people saying CNC will never be available for people at home as they cost too much,well I own a CNC, 3D printer and laser engraver ... not a massive step IMO All the best Doug |
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 28, 2020 11:43:25 GMT
I've just realised - it's an investment casting! Very clever. Was the 3D print in PLA? Regards, Carl Carl yes the pattern was 3D printed in PLA then cast in silicon bronze. We're planning to machine them shortly. regards Martyn |
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on Apr 30, 2020 4:37:07 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by masahiraoka on May 3, 2020 8:43:09 GMT
Crossheads both Inside and Out• The conventional drawing is an extract from the original BR drawing no. W11334 for the Inside Crosshead  • These two screen shots show the 3D CAD design of the Inside Crosshead. Note that for the Outside Crosshead we combined the full size crosshead and crosshead arm into the one scale 3D component (complete with dummy bolt heads) to make machining and assembly easier   • This photo shows the 3D metal printed Inside (above) and Outside Crossheads (below left side and right side respectively) 
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on May 3, 2020 10:36:49 GMT
Crossheads both Inside and Out• The conventional drawing is an extract from the original BR drawing no. W11334 for the Inside Crosshead • These two screen shots show the 3D CAD design of the Inside Crosshead. Note that for the Outside Crosshead we combined the full size crosshead and crosshead arm into the one scale 3D component (complete with dummy bolt heads) to make machining and assembly easier • This photo shows the 3D metal printed Inside (above) and Outside Crossheads (below left side and right side respectively) They've come out really well. Can you tell me what material they're printed with and what the resolution of the print is? Have you machined any of these yet? I ask this because another member had some printed in Stainless Steel some time ago, and they were almost impossible to machine, they were so hard. I presume the intention is to machine all of the holes and flat faces? I'd also be interested to know what sort of cost is involved. |
|
