Hi and Andrew Barclay model engine

[Kevan]

Hi I am a new member here. I have had a long term but largely inactive interest in model engineering and have collected a few things along the way. I am currently facing the prospect of semi retirement and thinking about embarking on a project. 

My interest in steam locomotives arose in the early 1970s and much time was spent at various collieries around EDINBURGH watching various Barclay pugs struggling with seemingly impossibly long trains of 16 and 20 ton wagons of coal on sometimes significant gradients. I have been thinking about building a locomotive either5” or 7.25” gauge and wondering if there are any drawings or existing models of either 4 or 6 coupled Barclay pugs? As a novice the basic simplicity of these engines is quite attractive but I am really nowhere being able to draw or design a locomotive. If there isn’t a Barclay are there any similar small engines that a could be adapted to make a model of reasonable accuracy of one of these engines?

thanks for the help

Caber

[don9f]

Hi Caber, welcome to the forum and your “Pug” idea sounds an interesting project. Unfortunately I can’t really help directly with any suitable design etc. although I remember seeing and being impressed by a 7 1/4 inch “Industrial” 0-6-0 model at the Sheffield track a couple of years ago, but when I looked up a photo of it, it’s obviously not a Barclay....however there are some similarities and it could be the sort of model you’re thinking of. I’m afraid I don’t know any more about it but “barloworks”, a member on here, is from Sheffield and he might.



Hope you find something to work with somewhere.

Cheers Don

[Roger]

Hi Caber,
Welcome to our happy band! I can't help you with plans, but I'd make sure you're aware of how big a 7-1/4" locomotive of this type will be and what it will cost by way of castings and a boiler. Although it doesn't seem like a big difference in gauge, the volume of the locomotive goes up as the cube of the linear gauge, so there's a huge difference in weight.
It's also worth considering where you are able to run it and what that means. If it's 7-1/4" gauge, you're always going to be running at ground level, whereas 5" gives the option or either ground level or raised tracks.

Another consideration is whether you can transport the finished locomotive in your car, or will you need a trailer.
Maybe you've already weighed up these factors, but I had no idea how heavy even a 5" gauge locomotive would be. It's certainly way beyond what one person could lift. In the workshop, an 7-1/4" locomotive is going to be much more difficult to move around without lifting equipment, and a small lathe, such as a Myford, might be on the small side.

Everyone has their own preferences for gauge, type of model and what they want from the whole experience, so don't let anyone, including myself steer you towards their own preference. I just wanted to make sure that you were fully aware of the factors that will come into play whatever your choice is.

I hope you'll start a build thread when you settle on something, there's a lot of interest in seeing what everyone is up to.

Roger

[weary]

Hello Caber,

GS Model Supplies can supply drawings and castings for a 7.25" gauge Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0 'pug', Singapore. Maybe form the basis of a 'Barclay' if this is not directly of interest?

Regards,
Phil

[JonL]

Worth also asking yourself where you intend to run; my local club only has 3.5 gauge and 5 gauge, I'm building 3.5 and think that will limit my running options a little with the upside being a locomotive I can easily transport, lift, and afford castings for.

[mbrown]

As most Andrew Barclay pugs were simple 0-4-0s with outside cylinders, inside valve chests and Stephenson valve gear. Quite a few model designs from Juliet (3.5"g) upward could be adapted fairly straightforwardly, I would imagine.

The main things that created a Barclay loco's distinctive character are the tank shape and the cab - I.e. platewirk which you can make to your own preferences without compromising the working bits.

Malcolm

[Kevan]

So things have moved on a bit! I just bought the chassis of a Rob Roy on eBay for a lot less money than the castings cost. It looks reasonably well made however it is impossibly stiff. Having stared at it for a while I realised that the frames are a bit bent. It looks like it has fallen on its right side quite heavily, there is a ding in the rear buffer, the frame is bent at the right motion bracket as if it landed on that also the rear of the frame is displaced to the left.



So my first question is are the frames likely to be recoverable and able to be straightened, if so how would I set about that?

Second question is that as Rob Roy is basically modelled after a Caledonian Railway Pug it would seem a good position to start. If the frames are recoverable I could probably make the tank and plate work look like a Barclay.

If the frames are not likely to be recoverable then using the mechanical basics to build a Barclay on new frames seems a good possibility. To that end I have three significant questions:
1 All the appropriate Barclays seem to have inclined cylinders. Is it possible to build the new frames with the cylinder and valve blocks inclined as long as the radius to the crank axle is maintained?

2 After about 1902 Barclays used an 8 spoke pattern wheel with heavy square spokes. Can anyone suggest a suitable 3" diameter wheel casting that might be able to look right? The back of some wheel castings look almost right but tend to have more than 8 spokes. This set has 10 but are aarger diameter

3 I am currently thinking of using the Rob Roy boiler design, however if it is a more accurate model, the dome, clacks  and safety valve positions will need to move. I presume this shouldn't be a big issue

Sory I can't figure out how to get an image in here!

---

[philh1aa]

Caber,

My opinion....

It is difficult to assess whether you can retrieve the Rob Roy frames without pictures but laser cut, water jet cut or even a hacksaw and file replacements would not be too difficult.

However, even building Rob Roy to the drawings (with the necessary corrections) is quite a task if it is your first engine. I have seen pictures of saddle tank versions of Rob Roy but even they follow the same basic chassis drawings.

Personally, I think you need to decide whether you want to build a Pug or Rob Roy and go for either one. Perhaps look at the Blackgates, Reeves or Polly website for a preferred design.

Phil H

[smallbrother]

This 5" gauge saddle tank in't exactly what you require but it seems as "easy" as they come in this lark and Model Engineers Laser do the saddle tank I believe.

www.glrkennions.co.uk/model-engineering-steam-locomotive-peckett.html

Pete.

[Kevan]

Jun 2, 2020 11:28:04 GMT philh1aa said:

Caber,

My opinion....

It is difficult to assess whether you can retrieve the Rob Roy frames without pictures but laser cut, water jet cut or even a hacksaw and file replacements would not be too difficult.

However, even building Rob Roy to the drawings (with the necessary corrections) is quite a task if it is your first engine. I have seen pictures of saddle tank versions of Rob Roy but even they follow the same basic chassis drawings.

Personally, I think you need to decide whether you want to build a Pug or Rob Roy and go for either one. Perhaps look at the Blackgates, Reeves or Polly website for a preferred design.

Phil H

A picture! This is what I would like to build, I think I can manage the prototype quality of the plate work:)


This is the starting point


This is the bend at the motion bracket


This is the bend at the back.

And the desired end result


I am trying to get dimensions of the engine to see how close they are. The general working parts of the rob roy look to be reasonably well made and I will start dismantling as soon as I have appropriate BA spanners the firs set I ordered arrived as metric!

If I am starting from a functional engine how possible is it to make changes like angling cylinders and changing wheel base on a new frame set that I will draw up using the same drilling pattern as the original?

Thanks for the assistance!

Kevan😀

[uuu]

They don't look beyond repair. I'd vote for stripping down and trying to ease back straight. At the Pumphouse we'd use the flypress, but other approaches would work. In very small steps, with each blow testing the bounce-back until you go just past the elastic limit. In tiny steps.

Wilf

[Kevan]

Jun 3, 2020 7:22:26 GMT uuu said:

They don't look beyond repair. I'd vote for stripping down and trying to ease back straight. At the Pumphouse we'd use the flypress, but other approaches would work. In very small steps, with each blow testing the bounce-back until you go just past the elastic limit. In tiny steps.

Wilf

Wilf, I was thinking of trying to jack the valve gear bracket bend out with a fine thread nut and bolt against a bit of metal on the opposite side. I think the back of the frame may need the hammer solution if I can support the rest of the frame in a vice. I don’t have access to a fly press unfortunately. How would you use that to straighten the frame?

Thanks Kevan

[stevep]

Jun 3, 2020 8:08:01 GMT Kevan said:

Jun 3, 2020 7:22:26 GMT uuu said:

They don't look beyond repair. I'd vote for stripping down and trying to ease back straight. At the Pumphouse we'd use the flypress, but other approaches would work. In very small steps, with each blow testing the bounce-back until you go just past the elastic limit. In tiny steps.

Wilf

Wilf, I was thinking of trying to jack the valve gear bracket bend out with a fine thread nut and bolt against a bit of metal on the opposite side. I think the back of the frame may need the hammer solution if I can support the rest of the frame in a vice. I don’t have access to a fly press unfortunately. How would you use that to straighten the frame?

Thanks Kevan

Kevan,

Be careful in trying to "straighten" that valve gear link - it may not be bent. Martin Evans made a mistake (now there's a thing) when he designed the valve gear for Rob Roy, as the valve gear and the valve rod don't line up.

In the books, there are pictures of part-built models, where the builder has made an off-set link between the stirrup over the leading axle and the valve rod. On my engine, I increased the distance of the port face from the cylinder centre line, and the position of the valve rod in the steam chest so that everything lines up.

The builder of your engine may have made a 'wonky' stirrup so that he could join the parts together

[Kevan]

Jun 3, 2020 8:48:21 GMT stevep said:

Jun 3, 2020 8:08:01 GMT Kevan said:

Wilf, I was thinking of trying to jack the valve gear bracket bend out with a fine thread nut and bolt against a bit of metal on the opposite side. I think the back of the frame may need the hammer solution if I can support the rest of the frame in a vice. I don’t have access to a fly press unfortunately. How would you use that to straighten the frame?

Thanks Kevan

Kevan,

Be careful in trying to "straighten" that valve gear link - it may not be bent. Martin Evans made a mistake (now there's a thing) when he designed the valve gear for Rob Roy, as the valve gear and the valve rod don't line up.

In the books, there are pictures of part-built models, where the builder has made an off-set link between the stirrup over the leading axle and the valve rod. On my engine, I increased the distance of the port face from the cylinder centre line, and the position of the valve rod in the steam chest so that everything lines up.

The builder of your engine may have made a 'wonky' stirrup so that he could join the parts together

Steve

It’s not the link,that looks ok if you look at the frame against the rule there is a gap at the front, the rule rocks over the point where the slide bar bracket meets the frame. It looks about 2mm out of true!

Cheers!

[stevep]

SNIP

It’s not the link,that looks ok if you look at the frame against the rule there is a gap at the front, the rule rocks over the point where the slide bar bracket meets the frame. It looks about 2mm out of true!

Cheers!

If I remember correctly, the 'out-of-line' distance was 1/8", so even a 2mm bend wouldn't be enough. In the picture, the rule covers the right-hand link, so it's not clear whether that one is the same shape.

[uuu]

Jun 3, 2020 8:08:01 GMT Kevan said:

Wilf, I was thinking of trying to jack the valve gear bracket bend out with a fine thread nut and bolt against a bit of metal on the opposite side. I think the back of the frame may need the hammer solution if I can support the rest of the frame in a vice. I don’t have access to a fly press unfortunately. How would you use that to straighten the frame?

Thanks Kevan

We straightened out the front buffer beam of my Jessie, which had a bow in it - by resting on two rollers and applying blows between. There was something else that was bent - but can't remember what, but it came truly straight (feeler gauge and surface table straight). John has got the knack - from straightening bits of industrial machinery, which can get properly mangled.

I've tried squeezing things in a vice with two rollers on one side and one in between on the other, but have never had much success. I think the amount of force required is quite high, and it doesn't give much "feel" for what's going on.

All this has been done cold - others may have experience of how things go when hot.

You've nothing to lose trying something, if the alternative is new frames. I'd strip down though - so you're just dealing with one piece of metal at a time.

Wilf

[ettingtonliam]

Those frames should be straightenable cold if stripped down, but if you've got a Rob Boy, stick to Rob Roy as designed mechanically, changing things like cylinder angles probably brings all manner of unseen complications in its wake. Most of what is visible is the platework, and that you can alter to your hearts content.

If you are looking for realism to full size, I bet most pugs/shunters had frames bent worse than yours by the end of their lives!

[philh1aa]

Kevan,

I think they can be retrieved but I would leave the hammer out of it. If you dismantle the chassis (it sounds like you are going to do that anyway), the frame just needs a gentle pull with one end in the vice (with soft jaws) because it looks like the frame has bent at the shallow section of the frame by the trailing wheel.

Tilted cylinder version? It could be done but is it really that important?

Phil H

[runner42]

It appears to me that the slots in the rear drag beam to locate the frames are too wide or the width of the rear frame stretcher is not wide enough, such that when the frame stretcher has been tightened up it has caused the frame(s) to bend. Suggest you check both items for compliance to the drawing requirements. Likewise the slots in the front drag beam and front frame stretcher need to be checked. Any part incorrect replace it. It also looks like the valve gear has been moved out of alignment due to trying to mate the valve rod to the eccentrics., the proposed dog leg in the valve cross head needs to be incorporated.

Brian 

[Kevan]

Brian thanks, the valve gear is out of alignment, the eccentrics seem improperly aligned on the axel. The offset at the valve crosshead is incorporated but on the left side the bridge section over the axel is bent and the cross head pin is pretty much touching the axel box. The next thing is to start dismantling to get a clear look and measure of the frames and check what is binding as I go.