Gary L
Elder Statesman
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Post by Gary L on Oct 27, 2020 16:29:28 GMT
Yes considering your initial apprehension, that looks really good. Cheers Don Kerrin, simplyloco, Roger, Don Thanks chaps, but it’s strictly beginners’ luck. Not counting some trivial little items, it is only the second full-blown curvy metalbashing job I’ve had to do, and both were part of this Paddington project. Perhaps oddly, in view of its ‘black art’ reputation, I’ve had to do more spinning jobs than bashing so far, and they worked out OK, though in much thinner material. Onwards and upwards; I’ve got to do Corner No.2 next, so mustn’t get cocky... Gary
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 27, 2020 17:11:25 GMT
Thinking ahead to the rivetting, I estimate there are about 700 3/64" rivets to hold this cab structure together. Has anybody any experience of this sort of tool? It would need special sets making up for rivets this size, but is it overkill?? I've only been able to track down one special tool in the Model Engineering sector, and that was a device which Dave Noble listed, based on a Mole Wrench. However by its nature, the two sets/dies (whatever) cannot be maintained exactly parallel in that device, which general consent says is not a good idea. Gary
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
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Post by mbrown on Oct 27, 2020 17:18:46 GMT
Yes, I have one of these - albeit a home made one acquired from the Homeworkshop site ages ago. It is absolutely fine on small brass rivets and 3/64" won't be any problem at all. 1/16" in steel and over is a bit too much for the gadget, though. As with all riveting, you have to get the tail of the rivet the right length or it tends to bend over and make a mess.
The biggest problem I have had is that the jaws are often not quite the right shape for every awkward rivet location - and it is the awkward places where hammer and setts are no use either. I have had a number of "so near yet so far" moments. Bu they do avoid the hammer dings that I always get when riveting the traditional way as I am not a very good aim!
Malcolm
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Oct 27, 2020 18:53:34 GMT
Gary I have one virtually the same and would not be without it. They will put down 5/32 steel rivets with no problem. It is easy to make up snaps to suit odd situations. For small parts I tend to use it clamped in the vice. As Malcolm says you still need to have the rivet length correct to get the tail to set properly, use 1.5 x the rivet diameter. I also tend to rivet aircraft style, using a flat snap to form the tail, in a lot of cases the tail cannot be seen so the cosmetics are not an issue. Dave
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,719
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Post by mbrown on Oct 27, 2020 19:53:21 GMT
Blimey Dave - either your version is built like a tank or you have Charles Atlas muscles in your grip (or both)! 5/32" steel rivets would defeat both me and my riveting tool. I guess much depends on the ratio of the toggling action in the device.
Malcolm
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Post by Roger on Oct 27, 2020 20:46:48 GMT
The hand rivet press looks useful on the ones you can reach, but there are a great many that it won't. That's why I designed a custom one with a very long reach and a way to support long slender anvils. If you're planning on riveting on the base you'll need a very long reach indeed, especially when you have to go over the overhang on the buffer. I'd look at the worst ones you have to do and make a tool that will do those and all of the others too.
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Post by coniston on Oct 27, 2020 21:32:27 GMT
Gary, if you want to make one similar to the one you show on ebay then Polly sell a casting and drawing for £24, it is advertised as 75mm (I guess the throat depth). They also have snaps at £21.50 per set
Chris D
PS, the metal bashing is excellent, just goes what you can do with a bit of planning and perseverance, well done.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Oct 27, 2020 22:18:20 GMT
Malcolm 1/8 steel easy, 5/32 need a bit more grunt but they do go down. They certainly have a very large lever ratio.
Gary Looks great by the way
Dave
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 28, 2020 0:04:37 GMT
Gary I have one virtually the same and would not be without it. They will put down 5/32 steel rivets with no problem. It is easy to make up snaps to suit odd situations. For small parts I tend to use it clamped in the vice. As Malcolm says you still need to have the rivet length correct to get the tail to set properly, use 1.5 x the rivet diameter. I also tend to rivet aircraft style, using a flat snap to form the tail, in a lot of cases the tail cannot be seen so the cosmetics are not an issue. Dave Thanks Dave and Malcolm, that's really helpful Gary
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 28, 2020 0:21:56 GMT
The hand rivet press looks useful on the ones you can reach, but there are a great many that it won't. That's why I designed a custom one with a very long reach and a way to support long slender anvils. If you're planning on riveting on the base you'll need a very long reach indeed, especially when you have to go over the overhang on the buffer. I'd look at the worst ones you have to do and make a tool that will do those and all of the others too. It's a good point Roger. The trouble with 7 ¼" gauge is that some parts are going to be impossible to reach with any practical size of tool. I could run down the first side of a butt seam easily, but then when they both come together- problem! You can reach in a certain amount of the way from either end, but not the middle. So quite a lot of the rivets are going to have to be set 'the old fashioned way' which introduces problems of its own when these big panels are flopping around without any support. I shan't be rivetting the base to the footplate, so that's a problem I will (erm) skirt around. There will be a smallish number of captive bolts through the base angle, nutted from below to secure. That way I will be able to remove the cab as a unit fairly quickly should the need arise, without disturbing the footplate. My experience with Speedy was that it was necessary quite often, to fix or alter the backhead pipework. I'm hoping I'll have designed around that for the most part, as have you, but best to assume the worst! Gary
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 28, 2020 0:32:00 GMT
Gary, if you want to make one similar to the one you show on ebay then Polly sell a casting and drawing for £24, it is advertised as 75mm (I guess the throat depth). They also have snaps at £21.50 per set Chris D PS, the metal bashing is excellent, just goes what you can do with a bit of planning and perseverance, well done. Thanks Chris. Polly might be missing a trick by not having an illustration of their device; I assumed (for no special reason) that it would be like the Dave Noble mole wrench type. I'm keen to get on and get finished now, so I don't really want to get into toolmaking unless its unavoidable. (And I can see at least one in the 'unavoidable' category looming threateningly on the horizon... ) Gary
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Oct 28, 2020 1:22:00 GMT
Lovely curves Gary! Most things are anticipated as impossible but once you get to participate with the right type of brass you and we wonder what all the fuss was about. ME in my professional life convincing Design Art, and Architect Students that they COULD build in model or full size the thing they had just drawn out in Solid-works.
I have a riveting tool casting but as usual have not got round to making it. They also sell ready made ones. Yes got to do a factory tour and a very expensive grab of bits MIX AND MATCH in the Great Western section upstairs!!!
David and Lily.
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Post by steamer5 on Oct 28, 2020 4:58:58 GMT
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Post by Roger on Oct 28, 2020 8:58:37 GMT
The hand rivet press looks useful on the ones you can reach, but there are a great many that it won't. That's why I designed a custom one with a very long reach and a way to support long slender anvils. If you're planning on riveting on the base you'll need a very long reach indeed, especially when you have to go over the overhang on the buffer. I'd look at the worst ones you have to do and make a tool that will do those and all of the others too. It's a good point Roger. The trouble with 7 ¼" gauge is that some parts are going to be impossible to reach with any practical size of tool. I could run down the first side of a butt seam easily, but then when they both come together- problem! You can reach in a certain amount of the way from either end, but not the middle. So quite a lot of the rivets are going to have to be set 'the old fashioned way' which introduces problems of its own when these big panels are flopping around without any support. I shan't be rivetting the base to the footplate, so that's a problem I will (erm) skirt around. There will be a smallish number of captive bolts through the base angle, nutted from below to secure. That way I will be able to remove the cab as a unit fairly quickly should the need arise, without disturbing the footplate. My experience with Speedy was that it was necessary quite often, to fix or alter the backhead pipework. I'm hoping I'll have designed around that for the most part, as have you, but best to assume the worst! Gary Hi Gary, Since you're only using Brass rivets, you don't need much force to form them. My rivet press has a throat of 143mm which would still only be 215mm in 7-1/4" gauge, so this is definitely viable even if you need to reach from the top to the bottom of the bunker. In the end it depends on where you want to put the time and effort. If you can reach from both top and bottom, you only need say 120mm of reach. If you do make a press, do make it tapered so that the top is really rigid while the bottom can still reach into those awkward places.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 29, 2020 1:03:03 GMT
Wow, that's a cool tool Kerrin, did you make it or buy it? -Gary
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Oct 29, 2020 1:23:12 GMT
It's a good point Roger. The trouble with 7 ¼" gauge is that some parts are going to be impossible to reach with any practical size of tool. I could run down the first side of a butt seam easily, but then when they both come together- problem! You can reach in a certain amount of the way from either end, but not the middle. So quite a lot of the rivets are going to have to be set 'the old fashioned way' which introduces problems of its own when these big panels are flopping around without any support. I shan't be rivetting the base to the footplate, so that's a problem I will (erm) skirt around. There will be a smallish number of captive bolts through the base angle, nutted from below to secure. That way I will be able to remove the cab as a unit fairly quickly should the need arise, without disturbing the footplate. My experience with Speedy was that it was necessary quite often, to fix or alter the backhead pipework. I'm hoping I'll have designed around that for the most part, as have you, but best to assume the worst! Gary Hi Gary, Since you're only using Brass rivets, you don't need much force to form them. My rivet press has a throat of 143mm which would still only be 215mm in 7-1/4" gauge, so this is definitely viable even if you need to reach from the top to the bottom of the bunker. In the end it depends on where you want to put the time and effort. If you can reach from both top and bottom, you only need say 120mm of reach. If you do make a press, do make it tapered so that the top is really rigid while the bottom can still reach into those awkward places. You are right Roger, undoubtedly. The biggest rivets I will use are 1/16" copper, and the rest are even smaller, 3/64" It shouldn't be too difficult to build something out of plate that won't bend or wobble when squeezing those, but it will still require some pretty heavy sawing and milling. On a modest mill like mine it could be done, but it will take an absolute age to do it. 215mm equates to about 8.5 - 9" swallow and I'm sure there won't be anything that big available on the market; or if there is it will be a massive thing, clumsy and expensive. I'm going to end up doing a proportion of these rivets by hand, purely because of (in-) accessibility, but where to draw the line... I'll do some more drilling and thinking Gary
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Post by steamer5 on Oct 29, 2020 5:38:01 GMT
Hi Gary, The hydraulic bit is a wire crimper...16 ton....so a bit over the top for 3/64” rivets! They come in different sizes I think at the time there was 4, 8, & 16 ton ones. The C shaped bits are to my design & the fitting on the end of the hydraulic unit that they attach too. I had them watercut. I think it was a story on the Model Engineer site by a gent that was doing a rebuild of a motor bike & needed to close 3/16” steel rivets that was the start of the project. The gent that I got some of the plans for the Garratt from had spec’d 3/16” rivets for the stretchers, I’ve since found that they should only be 5/32”, with only a few 3/16 ones for the spring hangers. I have had a play with it on the 3/16” ones & the power available opened the C frames! So will have to figure out how to sort that & still be able to get it were it’s needed.
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by ilvaporista on Oct 29, 2020 6:57:28 GMT
Hi Gary, Since you're only using Brass rivets, you don't need much force to form them. My rivet press has a throat of 143mm which would still only be 215mm in 7-1/4" gauge, so this is definitely viable even if you need to reach from the top to the bottom of the bunker. In the end it depends on where you want to put the time and effort. If you can reach from both top and bottom, you only need say 120mm of reach. If you do make a press, do make it tapered so that the top is really rigid while the bottom can still reach into those awkward places. You are right Roger, undoubtedly. The biggest rivets I will use are 1/16" copper, and the rest are even smaller, 3/64" It shouldn't be too difficult to build something out of plate that won't bend or wobble when squeezing those, but it will still require some pretty heavy sawing and milling. On a modest mill like mine it could be done, but it will take an absolute age to do it. 215mm equates to about 8.5 - 9" swallow and I'm sure there won't be anything that big available on the market; or if there is it will be a massive thing, clumsy and expensive. I'm going to end up doing a proportion of these rivets by hand, purely because of (in-) accessibility, but where to draw the line... I'll do some more drilling and thinking Gary When needing to hog out masses of steel I find that chain drilling then cleaning up with the angle grinder/disc cutter gets me quickly to near shape and then machine off the last bit on the mill to achieve final shape. My far Eastern mill did not like the jagged surface from chain drilling but gave acceptable finish once the surface was more or less level. Now on some functional parts I just leave the finish from the grinder with a quick polish on the sander/linisher. Only do this outside and when the neighbours are out.... The noise and mess is considerable!
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Post by Roger on Oct 29, 2020 8:14:06 GMT
Hi Gary, The biggest issue with using plate like I did for a rivet press is the tendency for it to twist as you apply the load. The spreading force trying to open out the 'G' shape isn't a problem. I had to add chunky side pieces to mine, and even then it would have been better if it was stiffer. I'd make it out of 12mm plate or thicker, you could get it laser cut. The anvil ends can be chamfered at a shallow angle over say 50mm length to make them small enough to reach into the awkward places. I opted for 3mm diameter anvils and the end is only 5mm thick, so it's quite slender at the business end. You'll have to look at what are the most difficult areas to reach when deciding that.
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Post by jordanleeds on Oct 29, 2020 13:22:45 GMT
Without wishing to hyjack the thread too much is there an alternative source of Paddington cylinder castings given that I think Reeves are no longer doing them and if they are charge a Kings ransom
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